Stu Gregor co-founder of world beating gin success story Four Pillars Gin talks life before, during and after selling the business

[00:00:00] Welcome into the Small Business Banter podcast. Stuart Greger is my very special guest today.

[00:00:09] Great to have you in Stuart, thanks for making time in a very busy schedule.

[00:00:13] No problem Michael, probably not as busy as you think you're right now.

[00:00:17] Well...

[00:00:18] Probably a little bit busy a few months ago but not that busy but thanks for having me.

[00:00:22] Oh look, I'm looking forward to finding out why you were so busy a couple of months back

[00:00:27] because that's kind of the essence of why we're chatted.

[00:00:31] Stuart is, amongst other things, a co-founder of four pillars, Gin and Stuart, he's two

[00:00:39] shareholder partners sold out recently to Lion, he'll sell the balance of the shareholding

[00:00:45] in that business so we're going to drill down on that.

[00:00:48] But aside from that, Stuart has his own business, has had for many years called Liquid Ideas,

[00:00:54] a communications agency in food, drink, travel, lifestyle, lots of time in the food and bev,

[00:01:01] hospitality, travel industry, part owner of a bespoke travel business with your sister,

[00:01:08] former panelist on ABC's Groen, President of the Australian Distill Association, director

[00:01:15] of RUUOK and Oz Harvest and then married with children.

[00:01:20] So that's pretty rich, colourish too and also I've just found out becoming more of a golf

[00:01:27] nut.

[00:01:28] So thanks-

[00:01:29] It's certainly Melbourne Business School Alumni, do if you don't mind.

[00:01:34] Yes, if we don't mind, yeah that's how Stuart and I met, Gino was over a marketing subject

[00:01:42] and it was about creating a new brand for Bubbly I think.

[00:01:46] So there you go, there was 20+ years ago down somewhere in Port Melbourne or Albert Park

[00:01:53] where we were locked up in a room trying to create a food-bird marketing campaign.

[00:01:57] Albert Park, Red Port Street.

[00:02:01] Yeah.

[00:02:02] So Stuart, give us some time and some flavour and context about Stuart Gregory and where

[00:02:10] he's been and where he is now.

[00:02:15] Well, without wanting to bore you to my stage tell of space, I mean after school I guess,

[00:02:26] if I look at a, I'm 54 years old now and as you just said I've sold the four pillars

[00:02:33] business which is a business that we've had running for the last 10 years, I sold out

[00:02:36] of that in July in 2023 and finished up with them in September of this year and I've just

[00:02:44] come back from a little overseas, bit of a holiday at the start of what is a designed

[00:02:51] sabbatical for six months to try to figure out what I'm going to do next but I guess

[00:02:55] you know I came out of the world of media and journalism was kind of what I did straight

[00:03:00] out of school and then found my way into the wine industry, interestingly I've got a little

[00:03:08] note here from a little winery called Rockford where I worked out in the barrass of Allie

[00:03:12] back in the early '90s, mid '90s and that's where I went to college and studied wine marketing

[00:03:17] as it was called in, sort of a wide business to do if you like and that's how I sort of

[00:03:20] morphed my journalism and communications abilities in with, you know, sort of understanding

[00:03:25] a bit more about wine and drinks into creating a little business called liquid ideas that

[00:03:30] just mentioned and liquid ideas still exist today, in fact I was out with the managing

[00:03:35] director of liquid ideas yesterday at an event called South by Southwestern, an amazing

[00:03:39] marketing conference and a whole of industry and futuristic conference in Sydney for the

[00:03:45] first time just yesterday and the liquid ideas go from strength to strength and liquid ideas

[00:03:49] advisors and councils, great spirits and wine and food and hospitality and travel businesses

[00:03:57] in their marketing and communications undertakings basically and that business still goes stronger

[00:04:02] than it is still a 20-odd staff and that has been a constant through the last...

[00:04:11] It was born out of an entrepreneurship subject at Melbourne Business School actually back

[00:04:15] in 1999 with a girl called Angie Bradbury who started for liquid ideas with me, Angie

[00:04:21] and I met in a lecture theatre at Melbourne Business School where we were both doing

[00:04:27] master's, so that has been a constant and I guess one of the things that - one of the

[00:04:33] reasons for pillars exists is that I've always loved the council, like I've always loved

[00:04:42] the idea of being a, you know, I suppose a consultant or a specialist advisor and all

[00:04:46] that sort of stuff, but I've - it frustrates me to a point, and this is probably why I

[00:04:50] left journalism, it frustrates me to a point where you tend to be the observer rather than

[00:04:53] the doer, you tend to be the person who gives all the advice but you're not the person

[00:04:58] responsible for the ultimate decision making and the ultimate creation of whatever it is

[00:05:02] and I guess that when I was a journalist I always, you know, was interviewing interesting

[00:05:06] people whether they were musicians or politicians or sports people and I probably wasn't satisfied

[00:05:12] enough just being the person interviewing them. I thought oh, we're not sure what interesting

[00:05:16] actually the person doing something and the same thing I suppose out of liquid ideas once

[00:05:20] we were at a point where we were advising big spirits companies and beer companies and

[00:05:26] wine companies about stuff. In the back of my mind was always, well why wouldn't I try

[00:05:30] to have a crack at doing something actually myself like building my own brand or our

[00:05:35] own brand and so when I got together with Cameron Mackenzie, who was a guy I'd met back

[00:05:40] in the late 90s back when I was studying with you and then a guy called Matt Jones who

[00:05:47] had probably met 10 years later, or 15 or 12 or 13 years later, you know, we got together

[00:05:53] and said well why don't we try to create a gin brand from scratch and basically do

[00:05:58] all the things we tell other people that they should be doing and actually prove that we

[00:06:03] can do it ourselves. I think that's a great, I think that's a great test of a consultant

[00:06:09] if they've got the runs on the board themselves.

[00:06:13] It kind of says that you've got an innate desire to do something and you're excited

[00:06:20] and you can or you can't and if you can't you learn something about what you did wrong.

[00:06:27] Because just to be in the background and consistently advising without ever testing whether

[00:06:34] you could actually implement some of what you talk about is. It's a significant step,

[00:06:40] isn't it?

[00:06:41] It's the difference between frankly the simplest way to describe it. It's the difference between

[00:06:45] walking and talking to talk. You know, I mean everyone can have the best ideas in the world

[00:06:50] and talk a great game, but if you've not got lived experience, you fall short by a certain

[00:06:56] percent. It's not 100 percent because I think great advisors and great counsel and great

[00:07:04] consultants can be hugely valuable. I mean I've been one for my whole life essentially

[00:07:10] or my whole life, but you learned so much more from having done it yourself and learned

[00:07:17] from it and made all the mistakes. I think that's, you know, if I look at four pillars

[00:07:23] which was essentially a 10-year journey that started in 2013 and I mean I got out in 2023

[00:07:29] just towards the end of 2023 like right about now.

[00:07:33] It was that there were so many bits of advice I gave people over the years that came to

[00:07:40] help me and there were also bits of advice I gave people that probably weren't in hindsight

[00:07:44] or in retrospect. Okay, now I realise why they didn't listen to that piece of advice

[00:07:48] because potentially it wasn't, you know, I didn't look at the commercial implications

[00:07:52] or the distribution implications or I hadn't really got my head around production.

[00:07:58] So, you know, if I were to go back into consulting now to advise any sorts of businesses I think

[00:08:05] I'm a much better place now to give them advice having happy and happy interests.

[00:08:10] Yeah, good to see battle scars and also obviously a capacity to reflect and, you know, but I

[00:08:15] mean that advisory role is it needs to be very, not black and white but impartial, unemotional

[00:08:24] at times and that's that sort of middle ground where to be an advisor you've got to be able

[00:08:34] to detach sometimes and look at it, you know, just purely from the advice point of view

[00:08:40] because no matter what the owner or the business founder is brewing up it often doesn't make

[00:08:49] sense so you've got to be hard but anyway, so maybe through liquid, you know, liquid

[00:08:53] ideas that's, you know, that's an ongoing vehicle and maybe you do kind of come back

[00:08:59] to businesses with a slightly different approach which is a nice evolution of view.

[00:09:07] Yeah, I think so, I think, you know, everyone it's an interesting time in, you know, like

[00:09:18] I like change and I like new things and I like to push myself and challenge myself in

[00:09:22] various areas and this is an interesting one because now, you know, the first thing you

[00:09:28] get so you get asked one thing and get told one thing right in this in this weird little

[00:09:32] sort of zombie state where you're the walking dead you're sort of retired but you're not

[00:09:38] retired, you certainly don't want to be retired but there are certain contractual things that

[00:09:44] you can't do so there's a whole lot of things that you might want to do that you can't because

[00:09:48] you've got non-complete agreements and all that sort of stuff and then and then people

[00:09:54] ask you so what's next what are you doing now what are you gonna do next like straight

[00:09:58] away like within days of having left the business what are you gonna do next what's your next

[00:10:03] plan what are you gonna do you know and then you get told by other people take a break

[00:10:09] don't do anything you need some you need some time out you need a you need to rest and reset

[00:10:14] and think and so it's a really interesting phase of your own life which is people really

[00:10:24] want to know what you're doing but people are also at the same time telling you not

[00:10:27] to do anything and yeah I wake up every day with another stupid idea of what I want to

[00:10:32] do and I go to bed thinking well that wasn't a best idea I wake up the next morning with

[00:10:35] another one I mean yesterday I was going to open a cafe in Kudji the day before I think

[00:10:39] I was gonna I was gonna make whiskey in New Zealand so I mean I don't know where I'm gonna

[00:10:43] land well that see what that tells me is there's energy and I like I deal with a lot

[00:10:49] of business owners and there are some who I think are completely and utterly spent and

[00:10:55] they're looking to do something else and there's a lot who are hardwired because of 20, 30 years

[00:11:02] of experience doing you're being being in charge of the business having good days having

[00:11:08] bad days but fundamentally not being able to to go and just happily walk the dog I I

[00:11:15] mean in this hundredth whatever episode I think it's 135 I've used this expression I

[00:11:21] don't want to walk the dog with a few explainings because a business owner said that to me one

[00:11:27] time and it was the we've gone through a process of trying to sell their business it

[00:11:33] was never enough money and after long story short after a while it turns out this particular

[00:11:40] owner only could see through and go I'd without my business I don't know what I'd what I'd

[00:11:45] do and I think it might be really a negative so yeah there's some for you it sounds like

[00:11:53] this you know you can't if it doesn't turn off well that's you know that's you just go

[00:11:57] to deal with that and that's a that's a good thing and you could find the right channel

[00:12:02] yeah I guess I guess I'm lucky in that even if if if I can't figure out what it is I do

[00:12:08] still have the consulting business that I could lean into although you know although

[00:12:14] yesterday the girl who's the managing director there she's been about two and a half years

[00:12:17] she's a really really talented young digitally focused like really clever woman and we were

[00:12:26] in South by South West yesterday so a lot of people around and it was a lot of networking

[00:12:29] and chatting and talking and drinking and and it was me telling her everything I know and

[00:12:35] she's like is this what it's going to be like if you come back because I'm not sure I mean

[00:12:40] this because I can be quite a you know I can be quite a native here too I can be quite

[00:12:47] a tornado of ideas and talk and you know and yeah and she was like oh god this is a lot

[00:12:53] because I made me meet up with her once a month for 30 minutes at the moment now she's

[00:12:57] terrified I'm gonna come back and sit sit in the office for those are week just yelling

[00:13:01] a lot it is it's just it's a function of the same thing that you're engaged and interested

[00:13:07] and alive and you can't help yourself but you know that's that's one of those you know

[00:13:12] in when you know an owner sells and there's an earn out or there's a period you know particularly

[00:13:21] if they sell to staff in small businesses which happens a lot it so you got to contemplate

[00:13:27] this sort of governance thing and and and specific roles because you no longer the owner

[00:13:34] or the you no longer the CEO so you to you know it's respectful for the rest of the team

[00:13:40] to let them do what they what you and the board or the you know the advisory board and

[00:13:45] tell them is their their KPIs or their their role so yeah it's it's it's hard till they

[00:13:50] go it is look I can't imagine what it's like to sell to staff like an MBA or something

[00:13:55] like that like I'm imagining that would be difficult I mean we had a you know I knew

[00:14:01] I wasn't so there were three founders of four pillars and two of them have stayed in in

[00:14:06] the business but I knew that I was not capable of doing that and actually I said that I would

[00:14:10] stay for two months and from July 1 to September 1 to help with the transition and just help

[00:14:15] make it you know you know we just thought from a even from a the point of view of optics

[00:14:22] you know me not leaving the day the deal was signed up we just thought well that's probably

[00:14:27] not not the not the best look of all time but I was a terrible employee for that two

[00:14:33] months like I was a disaster because I'm not used to not owning the business I'm not used

[00:14:39] to not being able to tell everyone my thoughts and how to act and it also going from being

[00:14:44] what was a dynamic small business with you know three founders who were on the who were

[00:14:50] you know contactable every day of every week and to being a corporate entity that had all

[00:14:56] these rules and regulations and HR departments and all that sort of stuff I just found it

[00:15:01] frankly yeah completely two worlds collide yeah I found it's like suffocating I was I

[00:15:10] was terrible and apart from having no official role other than being the ex co founder who

[00:15:21] is you like the loose loose loose player in the back line in the AFL right yeah just

[00:15:25] said you're allowed to roam and you know let's go where yeah but yeah it was a very funny

[00:15:33] it was a very funny couple months in high yeah you know over the years I'll look back

[00:15:37] on it and think it was a very very interesting time of my life well it is you know you go

[00:15:44] from a start up with with fan you know fellow founders mates had this great idea and I think

[00:15:51] I'd love to you know kind of go back a little bit to the start of that but yeah that energy

[00:15:58] focus in a startup like that I had three years in in a startup just after finishing

[00:16:07] my NBA with you and I've never worked as hard but I've never seen a group of people move

[00:16:18] the dial so much because every day you'd come in and it mattered and it was up to you

[00:16:26] it was it was just I don't know if I'd ever do it again I mean I've started my own business

[00:16:32] after that but the pace you know isn't and couldn't be sustained like that you know so

[00:16:39] with so we go back the it wasn't a garage that he started in it was a was four pillars

[00:16:46] was a because I what I'd like to do is just recap on four pillar story and then and then

[00:16:54] and just talk to you a little bit more about the process because this podcast is more and

[00:16:59] more about helping owners who have got a business could be worth 200,000 a million five million

[00:17:07] ten whatever it it's important to them personally and financially I want them to you know be

[00:17:13] more aware of what a what an exit could be like what are the other options so so where

[00:17:20] did four pillars start and and how did what was the genesis of it yeah it's an interesting

[00:17:30] story I mean it's interesting to you know talk about exit I'm happy to talk about how

[00:17:34] we sort of how we managed our way through that and how we you know set it up for success

[00:17:39] a successful exit because we have just you know it's only happened in the last couple

[00:17:42] months but I mean it was so it was so Cameron Cameron Mackenzie and I who were at Nate's

[00:17:47] and who would both work in the wine industry and he lived in the Arab Alley and I lived

[00:17:50] in Sydney and we made a bit of wine together and tooled around a bit over the years in

[00:17:56] about 2011 or 2012 started thinking and we had made some wine on the side but we had

[00:18:00] never done anything particularly serious I you know we we we together thought maybe

[00:18:08] we should do something what and what might be I mean we landed on gin we you know we

[00:18:15] met fortunately a third-partner a guy called Matt Jones who neither of us had known before

[00:18:20] but you know in a very short period of time we realized that he would be a great third

[00:18:24] partner in terms of his ability the right strategy and his ability to bring you know

[00:18:28] the sort of out ideas together and package them up and work with a digital team and a

[00:18:37] website team and a brand and build a brand strategy because I think a lot of small businesses

[00:18:43] don't do that sort of thing at the start and they should we won't particularly you know

[00:18:49] super well capitalized I mean we did start up in the back of a mates shed like actually

[00:18:54] like in the end he had a winery in the bottom end of the Yara Valley if anyone knows Victorians

[00:18:58] and Warren died south it's not really the Yara Valley you can tell anyone from outside

[00:19:03] of Melbourne it's the Yara but if you're in Melbourne you know it's really not the Yara

[00:19:06] it's a longer part basically and we we raised a bit of money you know the three of us put

[00:19:14] money in you know we just read more with our houses we've got 20 investors who put sort

[00:19:18] of you know 25, 30 grand in each and we promised them nothing much more than a bit of gin and

[00:19:26] a hell of a ride so it's a bit like a crowdfunding thing before that really as in you go to your

[00:19:33] network of friends and say look yeah it's a relatively small amount of money in you'll

[00:19:38] get some product yep and we also did so we did a crowd funding we did a virtual or a

[00:19:44] well on campaign as well but that wasn't for equity that was just to get the first batch

[00:19:49] of the gym right that was just a publicity exercise as much as it does but also ability

[00:19:54] for us to drive a consumer database from the beginning from the get go so the our our

[00:19:59] 20 investors put in real money for a piece of the business and then away we went and

[00:20:05] the three of us kept 60 60 odd percent of the business between the three was equally

[00:20:10] split and away we went and at the time I was you know holding down at my real job which

[00:20:17] was liquid ideas and the our mates who put the money in you know had an expectation that

[00:20:25] we would take it seriously enough so you know we said sort of okay well we will we will

[00:20:30] most likely be in this business full time within the next couple of years Matt said

[00:20:34] the same thing Cameron was in the business full time from the get go and you know a way

[00:20:40] we went we didn't begin the business with an exit in mind and I think that's one thing

[00:20:45] that I don't think you can do I don't think you I don't think you'd be motivated in the

[00:20:50] right way if you're going in to get out. Right because you've got to get in to be in right

[00:20:58] you've got to want to be and you're going to be all in yeah and you've got to want to

[00:21:02] you're going to love the job you've got to build something that becomes worthy of other

[00:21:10] people's attention right you don't like I'm I sort of cringe when you know and I see

[00:21:19] a lot of business proposals and small business and startups go past my desk because everyone

[00:21:25] thinks that you know either I'm a wizard or I've got more money than I have or whatever

[00:21:30] that I can should be an investor in their small business startup whatever it happens

[00:21:33] to be whether it's you know men's wear or distilling or facial you know facial care

[00:21:43] or distribution or whatever the businesses are there you know a few of them come to me

[00:21:47] and I worry that you know they're already talking about an exit strategy when they haven't even

[00:21:52] got an entrance strategy you know like you've got to get in and build something and it's

[00:21:57] only if you build something successful that you're going to be able to have a good exit

[00:22:03] right I'm really I'm really pleased to hear you say that's you because it kind of poisons

[00:22:08] a water a bit that unless you have an exit in mind that you're kind of off track already

[00:22:15] and I agree with you just you got a well you got a barrel on barrel in and get stuck

[00:22:23] into this just purely to make it work day to day and then yeah because we will talk

[00:22:29] about how the the exit came about but it's I think it's comfort to a lot of those that

[00:22:36] you know you don't have an exit plan at the start I don't know how many ever start a business

[00:22:40] with that in mind I think it's a very small proportion but the further you go the further

[00:22:45] you get closer to the point where you probably should think about some kind exit plan but

[00:22:50] not necessarily I think they're also pretty limited in a lot of ways they just assume

[00:22:57] and a lot of things that you know there's only one kind of buyer and you know exit's the only option there's not there's a lot of other ways out. Yeah look I'm not you know I'm not an expert in that you're the expert at that but I mean I mean I mean we I don't even think for the first five years we even gave it a minute so I don't think we necessarily were thinking this business will go forever and our children will inherit it because we did have other we did have external investors who at some point either we were going to have to pay them out out of our own.

[00:23:27] For five years we just plowed on to try to make the best gin distillery business that we could. So was a focus on being the best you could like a pure this is that we started this to make the best what you consider the best gin in the world and that was purely and only the focus.

[00:23:53] And it had to be I mean not just to make it but the market as the best gin in the world to to have the best events in the world to have the best distribution in the world you know like to build a business like you know I mean far

[00:24:06] bit for me to go back to the the fees of marketing but I mean you have to be world class and all of them at its price promotion product about packaging you know people all that sort of stuff.

[00:24:16] You know we we had to become the world best at or amongst the world's best at everything but we were very lucky in timing and again one of the things I was actually talking to mate this morning on the walk around here that just because you had a bit of luck and a bit of success in you know

[00:24:31] in one business does not make you an expert in in your next business or in any other businesses and we were lucky in terms of timing we came into the gin industry where there were maybe ten or twelve people making gin in Australia and today there's over three hundred.

[00:24:45] So we were very lucky in that we had a whilst we weren't the first movie we certainly had an early mover advantage right we were not we were at the early part of the wave of gin distillaries right now

[00:24:57] you're at the you know at the bottom of the wave and you've got a paddle like crazy and some will succeed and many many and some will not

[00:25:05] but and it probably probably won't be because the quality of the gin is in there it's because it's just so crowded and correct yeah it's just it's just increasingly difficult to find space not I mean shelf space like actual space on a shelf and also you know sort of space in consumers' minds.

[00:25:22] So it is a tough market now but that's not to say there are plenty of markets that are crowded that a newcomer can succeed if they are very single minded if they are offering something that is unique and brilliant and you know right now I say to people right now that

[00:25:41] the minimum chips to enter is to have a world-class product like if your product can't win a gold medal at the international wine and spirits competition or something in San Francisco or something in Melbourne or whatever else then

[00:25:53] you know you don't have a right to earn a consumers trust because the consumers have enough enough gin many of the consumers have enough tunes on their shelf or out when they go drinking so

[00:26:07] they don't need to earn the right for consumers to

[00:26:22] be really good so yes it's a tough time now but we were lucky in that we got in earlier than we wanted a bunch of things early and I guess you know if I'm talking to people who are thinking about setting up a business of any description is how

[00:26:37] how expert are you in this industry in this category beyond everyone else like we had 50 combined years of expertise in drinks marketing activation brand and brand strategy right now that's a big advantage over someone who wants to set up a

[00:26:57] industry where who's come out of a super fund or they've come out of having worked in finance and they've decided they're going to get it and get it. The numbers were good so yeah but I think I can only imagine that how you as three mates and shareholders work together was also incredibly important

[00:27:20] because you can't take you can go into business with your family and friends and it can be a complete disaster so that you know I think that must have been a you know I'm sure there were you know there's ups and downs but fundamentally you know you still mates with them so

[00:27:37] that's tick you know you you've gotten through a lot together and you know to still be able to um yeah look and again I think that's not science I mean I think we were lucky I think we you know we'd hardly knew Matt when we came in we were just lucky with him that he was as good as he is or what not was not dead

[00:28:01] and Cameron and I had worked together before and we knew that we could work together and we knew that we had you know we had a certain symbiosis you know he was good at certain things and I was good at other things so we weren't we weren't necessarily going to get in each other's way

[00:28:17] and we trusted each other I think one of the things about if you are going to go into business with a mate or a friend or a colleague and that sort of stuff is is not just understand your line but you've got to have this inherent trust in the other person's ability and integrity

[00:28:36] and you just can never have doubts like I don't think you know we we fought and we disagreed but we never doubted each other's intent or each other's ambition or each other's you know honesty like we never that never came into it and I think that

[00:28:56] the place where where relationships break up and partnerships break up is when there's a when there's a fracture in your trust and I know how to factor in trust with damage I said you can agree on everything but we never I never questioned his intent

[00:29:13] No look it's it's deaf very definitely a fortunate thing to be able to go in and and keep functioning at the different levels it's still as in the background friends but in the foreground where we're on a mission here to build create the world's best in and market the world's best in

[00:29:33] and so I'm often I think founders or prospective business partners they they kind of leap at we know each other but they've never really tested how they're going to work together before they work together like so you can get lucky but you can also I've seen it come apart and tear tear a family or tear mates or friends or you know are a couple it's just you know so you can you can put in place a couple of things

[00:30:02] but so you said there was no you know so the first five years no no exit in mind I as I said I love I love that it was about let's probably a recognition underneath all of that that if it doesn't work while we gave it an absolute red hot crack

[00:30:21] and so you roll for how many we're probably gonna miss out on a few details but how many years was it before you realized you had something that was I mean you got awards for you gin but that it became something that might be of interest to a bigger company or might be valuable financially

[00:30:48] and we've had a we've had a good run can you talk about I reckon it's yeah I reckon it's four or five years right so I think if we if we say we started in 2013 I reckon it was towards the it was let's call it the five year.

[00:31:01] Let's say it's 2018 so we've we've we've we've the gin wave has sort of begun. We've built in 2015 we bought a shed in Hillsville which for those of you who don't know the Yarra Valley so we've gone from being in a crappy part

[00:31:15] of the Yarra and Warren died to buying a beautiful timber yard right in the heart of Hillsville and we opened that in 2015 so let's call that two years after two two and a half years after we started.

[00:31:27] We opened a really beautiful distillery door and I think the moment where we started thinking cracking this could be good is when people were queuing up out the front of our distillery on Saturday mornings waiting to come in to taste the gin and have a drink and

[00:31:40] we thought crisis maybe we are we're on to something here we had a couple of a little bit of success in a few awards you know people started to know us we've been able to get good distribution so you know you can buy us in Denver if you send you could buy us in some nice places overseas

[00:31:59] and I think that was as much it was that a like a an overt and a conscious focus on we've got a great product but we still got a market to crap out of it.

[00:32:09] Well Mark knows everything I mean I say to everyone you know making it easy selling it's hard yeah right.

[00:32:15] Which can be a found and can be a found this challenge I want the best the most pure the leading edge but you got to say to sell it.

[00:32:26] If you don't have a customer it doesn't matter how good your product is right you know great you can sit at home and masticate all you like about how wonderful your product is and why yours is better than everyone else's but frankly doesn't matter.

[00:32:38] If you can't if you don't have a customer base yeah I mean unless you just want to do it for shit some giggles right if you're in the business just for a passion project on this just because you want to make the world's best year well that's great.

[00:32:51] But that's not a commercial undertaking that's another proper commercial enterprise that's just a really nice hobby.

[00:32:57] It's an honorable artisan there's nothing wrong with that and all and there are people out there who are doing it in every category and good luck to them.

[00:33:04] Yeah we were interested in making it into creating a business and creating a viable business that was going to employ lots of people and build help build a category you know and when I think so if I go back to the five year point I think by 2018 you

[00:33:21] know we had created a, I think bloody Shiraz gen we created a Christmas gen we created gyms that didn't really exist categories are some categories with engine that didn't really exist we've never started from the idea that we only wanted to make

[00:33:32] jinn and I think we were we were easily Australia's biggest jinn brand by then and we were as big as craft spirit brand by then and we probably had half of the Australian gen market to ourselves and that that I think began to get attention

[00:33:48] to a few of the bigger players like you know like say let's say they're Mr. Mr. Mr. Global spirits company once a year Mike fly to Australia and have a look around and go what the hell is this four pillars gee that seems

[00:34:02] everywhere and people are talking about it let's win these awards and I've seen it pop up in our liquor store in London or New York and

[00:34:10] what is it and I mean it was as simple as that I actually do remember that that the world's biggest distilling business is a business called Diagio.

[00:34:19] A couple of the guys at Diagio were friends of ours and they liked us and I had worked with them in the past as a consultant and they're marketing director they're local marketing director said hey we've got a bunch of the global guys in

[00:34:31] for a you know session on learning about stuff. Would you guys come in and just chat about four pillars? And I said sure of course we would you know we love these are the people who own tank array and Gordon's and Smirnoff and Bailey's and Guinness and you know they're the biggest and best

[00:34:46] spirits business in the world and we said sure we'll you know they gave us like 45 minutes we went into their office we told them all about the four pillars story they loved them and we showed them that we tasted some gin with them and I think that was probably the first moment where we

[00:34:57] and then they came back and the marketing guy from Australia came back they said mate they fucking love it they think you guys are unreal him like are you really he said yeah and you know there's a you know they think you're you're business is fantastic your brand is fantastic and you know and I didn't say we want to buy you but we got this sort of sense that okay there might be something going on here

[00:35:24] and that was probably the first time where we thought okay there's a there's there's something going on here and and because at the time I was also chairing the distillness association so I was chairing the craft spirits association like that

[00:35:39] and I was at the time sort of going to more and more meetings with all the big spirits companies because we were trying to lobby government about tax and excise and all that sort of stuff so I would hang out with the boss of Purna Rickard which is the huge business that don't you know she was regal and absolutely

[00:35:55] and I was hanging out with the boss of Brown Form and that was Jack Daniels or the boss of being centaurie that owns Jim beam and canadian club and we would often talk and they would sometimes just in casual conversation having beers say that you know I know you guys are doing so great four killers you know my boss in Asia has heard about you and is wondering what's going on and I don't know obviously they've they've got jin brands and they're looking at the jin category in Australian are going how you know what's this Aussie jin brand.

[00:36:23] So you know we were getting a bit of a sense that that they're not that they were going to buy us but that we were certainly on on a few radars and I guess that was the that was that was enough for us to start thinking well what's next.

[00:36:36] Okay so that you I was going to ask that so did you kind of recalibrate what we're going to do with this business on the basis of an intuition that we've got something here that's getting attention globally by big companies.

[00:36:52] Yeah I mean to be honest what we do then is we just basically went and said what are what do we do and because I was sort of, you know, did you actually like did you engage and advisors or is yeah yeah eventually we did so so what I did is I had a

[00:37:10] couple conversations with a few mates who have like boss heads of some of these international companies and I said, tell me truthfully you know would there be any ambition or interest in the four killers business before I go any further before I

[00:37:22] go on a point people and yeah and I spoke to a few and a couple of them said yeah you know what I think them I think there might be you know the jim categories booming you know they can see globally that that's fast growing.

[00:37:36] Stay tuned, you know I'll take it to my boss's boss you know they might only have a meeting once every six months with the Bible head of acquisition that is based in you know Manhattan or New York or Milan or or London or wherever.

[00:37:50] I actually remember coming towards the end of which was probably 2018 we got one of those calls which was from one of the very large businesses to say would you come over and present your credentials to the global CMO and the head of M&A in London.

[00:38:11] You know I don't know them, shit my pants but I didn't shit my pants but I was I was you know I was like okay right now it's this is this this is step number two.

[00:38:20] This is a mix of emotions here this is okay, this is the raw excitement, this is now a thing and I remember ringing a friend of mine in Melbourne who actually had to have had gone from the MBA a couple of years before us and she was a really good

[00:38:35] business person based in Melbourne and I know she had worked at Grant Samuel before so she'd done a bit of work with mergers and acquisitions and I said who is the best in Melbourne, not just Melbourne but who would do a small

[00:38:50] advisory job around M&A and that sort of stuff for our little business and she put me onto a little group called Canterbury Partners who were basically out of column, Simon Jones yeah Jonesy and Richard teased out so I I remember ringing him over because it was over the Christmas period.

[00:39:08] He was skiing somewhere because you know when I was in I don't know I was in Sydney and we had to be in London by the end of January and I said mate you don't know me but logs put me onto you and this is the business this is what we are and you know would you be in in able to advise us.

[00:39:27] And he said sure you know I know been about the business I drink a beer in and so we got on with him and and he they helped us through the entire process which probably took the next, oh my gosh I mean probably took the next probably took 12 months.

[00:39:44] Yep. I have lots of meetings and lots of pulling together business plans and lots of pulling together ideas and you know P and L's and everything else to then so you actually actually talk to a couple of the very serious players.

[00:40:01] Yeah yeah but but wise enough to to get some experts like Canterbury Partners at Simon Julian.

[00:40:12] There was no way we could have done it without them.

[00:40:14] No and that is that is that a very stage piece of advice for other owners get some external counsel on this stuff because I mean it's in but it's invasive.

[00:40:29] It's it's often new ground.

[00:40:32] Yeah.

[00:40:33] And you want someone who's kind of had a a a few run throughs in terms of how you play this because there's a lot of stake.

[00:40:42] Yeah, look I would absolutely unequivocally you know and one thing I do do when anyone says to me you know we've had some interest or we want to try to exit or we want to try to raise money.

[00:40:55] I mean I would just tell them to go get advice and I mean I would just tell them to go to Canterbury Partners because they're the ones I know and I trust and I like.

[00:41:02] And I would say to them look go.

[00:41:05] And because there are very few people who start a business you know you may start a craft business whether it's in you know shoe making or wine or spirits or whatever the hell it is.

[00:41:17] There are very few of us are experts in M&A and dealing with multinationals who made bias and Simon is it is experienced in that.

[00:41:26] It's also a really good when the negotiation gets difficult which it inevitably will and when you want to argue points that you'll feel very passionate about.

[00:41:39] It's good to have a third party in there who can argue that point on your behalf so you don't fracture the relationship between you and the buyer.

[00:41:47] Yeah, you can have that third party but like engaging a lawyer to defend you, you know, you can engage that third party so that they can have that argument and say look the founders will not a seed to that request.

[00:42:00] Will not happen, rather than you stamping your feet and say I'm not going to do that I'm not going to do that and then potentially fracturing the relationship that you may have ongoing with the purchaser.

[00:42:10] Yeah, because, particularly the if you have to stay, or there's an intention to stay in the business for a period whether it's a 3 to 5 year earn out or whether it's a lifetime or whether it's six to 12 months.

[00:42:23] You don't want to end up you and the MD of the business that's acquiring you hating each other's guts.

[00:42:29] Yeah, and it becomes much more, or even more pronounced when you when you're dealing with staff buyers which because you've got to take your employer hat off and put on your buyers hat.

[00:42:42] But yeah, it's yeah, adversarial's probably not the right way. It should be points of contention but that middle party to explain to rationalize to put it into context and say look, there's 10 things on the table here that that are contentious.

[00:42:59] We probably won't, we may not win all 10 but let you know that does it look okay if we get seven.

[00:43:06] So that's sort of impartial, you know, calculated thinking is really important from a good advisor.

[00:43:14] 100%, I couldn't I, as I said, I could not have done it without them and I think that they are.

[00:43:22] And they, and they see, and they put things into a deal that you would never have put into a deal because they know what can happen down the track and you don't.

[00:43:33] Yeah, we certainly.

[00:43:35] Yeah, no, I would I would, I would, so I would counsel getting great advice and Canada repartments was certainly fantastic.

[00:43:42] Yeah, so from there.

[00:43:45] What were the biggest like stresses for you. I imagine that was like, you go back to work, you keep running your great business.

[00:43:51] But what were the stresses that you and the other founders felt from that point on.

[00:43:57] Well, there was all concerns or.

[00:44:00] I mean, there were plenty of concern. Well, so.

[00:44:05] Working through 2018 into 19, you know, when we, we, we discovered that there was one very serious potential buyer, which was lion.

[00:44:16] And a couple of others who were tire kicking, but certainly interested, but you know, we, we had our, you know, by the end of 2018.

[00:44:26] We had had enough discussions with lions and they were serious. We knew that they were a beer company, but they were very keen to get in to owning craft spirits and we were there.

[00:44:36] That's, you know, priority target.

[00:44:39] So you, you really got into their heads and you could see why it made sense for them. It wasn't just tire kicking or.

[00:44:48] And, you know, we had, they had a managing director who I liked, you know, like trusted.

[00:44:53] I still to do to this day. They had a, they had a pretty clear idea that, you know, they were in the craft beer space and they want to, you know, they saw the growth, you know, beer was, you know, we flat and craft spirits was growing.

[00:45:07] They also wanted to buy the distribution business, who distributed four pillars and that made a lot of sense because that meant that they, we wouldn't lose the sales team that we had selling four pillars, because we were probably, we were well over half of the, of the business of the sales team.

[00:45:21] So it was, it was beginning to make a lot of sense and then it becomes an argument over over, you know, price as much as anything else. I mean, roles, responsibilities, all that sort of stuff.

[00:45:35] And that, you know, can become pretty fraught.

[00:45:39] You know, I, in many ways, you know, Matt and I probably took the lead on most of those negotiations and it took, you know, they always take longer than you expect.

[00:45:48] There are always hurdles that you think are insurmountable that get thrown in your way.

[00:45:53] When you think it's.

[00:45:54] Graham ill done and busted but it's really and if you don't have a good lawyer and a good advisor trying to do it on your own I think would be too much particularly at the number like I mean without without saying it's easier if it's less money but if it was a hundred you know you're not gonna pay kind of be partners and Norton Rose Law Firm if you're doing a deal for two hundred thousand dollars but you are if you're doing a deal for a hundred dollars right so if you're doing a deal for one hundred dollars you're gonna do it.

[00:46:23] for a hundred million yeah because you know that a couple hundred grand you spend on

[00:46:30] advisors and everything else is relatively small compared to what what's what's happening

[00:46:35] at the what's happening at the minute? There you go. That's a good one.

[00:46:42] So the dogs are for a walk. Good stuff. I don't want to walk the dog that didn't you say I do I don't want to walk the dog?

[00:46:49] Yeah some people do but some people don't. Yeah but also yeah I think it sounded like you had a pretty good relationship

[00:46:58] with the buyer essentially the CEO and and so all you know the the dissonance along the way the ups

[00:47:06] and downs against the backdrop of a fundamental fundamentally strong relationship where you understood

[00:47:14] why they were buying so you know it kind of gives you a bit of comfort I think to keep investing in

[00:47:18] the processes and have a few wins and losses but you know come out at the other end with a you know

[00:47:23] what you might consider a pretty good deal so yeah we talked about the you know the stresses

[00:47:32] keeping on keeping on in the business we did that become a bit harder and like in terms of

[00:47:41] your focus did you get? Yeah it started to get it. It was really distracting I mean it was really

[00:47:47] distracting in 2019 so the deal was actually finalized in March 2019 so for that first three

[00:47:52] months of 2019 I mean I spent most of my time trying to sort of finalize the terms of the of the of the

[00:47:59] deal itself which was you know stressful because I mean it wasn't something that I was particular you

[00:48:05] know that I was in any way an expert at it takes a lot of time I think this was to sell 50% of the

[00:48:14] business we'd have this concept in our head that we would sell half of the business and that we would

[00:48:19] work in and earn out into the deal because we we knew we had a lot of unfinished business I think

[00:48:28] if we thought if we just decided that time to sell 100% of the business one I don't think we

[00:48:32] were realized it's true value and two it just would have been too early to exit right we just had

[00:48:38] too much other stuff we wanted to do and there were too many more things that we needed to achieve

[00:48:43] and there were you know we we went to them and said we wanted to build this whole new distillery

[00:48:46] down in in the Ura Valley so we knew that we needed more funds for them so they

[00:48:52] for us to build this new dream distillery that we had so you became you became partners then in

[00:48:59] the sense and with a shared interest in building the business properly which you may not have been

[00:49:07] able to do without them correct or without our partner yeah so i mean that was 2019 or 2023 which

[00:49:14] were interesting years because we started 2019 you know by the end of 2019 we had won the world's

[00:49:19] best gin distillery the first Australian distillery to win that and that was in London end of 2019

[00:49:24] things were going great we were really growing our duty free business was a huge amount of business

[00:49:29] in the in the in the spirits business which is you know airports yep what's called global

[00:49:33] travel retail so we were doing that in Sydney at Melbourne but also in Changi and its other

[00:49:38] airports around around Asia in particular and then of course 2020 arrived and the shit hit the fan

[00:49:45] and all of our international markets and all of our on premise markets which is our hospitality

[00:49:51] markets which is bars and restaurants all basically closed in the space three months and you know

[00:49:58] that you're talking half your business so you know we had to do what everyone else did which was

[00:50:05] figure out a way to keep the doors open which was to sell lots of gin online to people direct and

[00:50:12] deliver cocktails to people at home because they couldn't go out to their favorite bars to make

[00:50:16] hand sanitizer for three months and and sort of exist through that and Melbourne was particularly

[00:50:26] difficult as you well know that you know we were not able to even to take visitors from Melbourne to

[00:50:31] our distillery door because we were outside the ring of steel and it was a tough I suppose 18

[00:50:40] months you know we were able to open for a short period and then close again and then open

[00:50:43] so we decimated our business plan out out all the plans that we'd written in at the start of 2019

[00:50:53] that was the growth strategy to get us to a sale price for 2023 was was was very

[00:51:00] tough stuff by by the end of 2020 so but your 50% partner was locked in and so did they come

[00:51:09] together and look this is a highly unusual event we're going to have to pivot do different things

[00:51:21] How did the relationship with with your partner at that point fellowship they were

[00:51:26] look they were great so this was lion so this is part of curin you know so they were they were

[00:51:32] great so I mean you know the dates get a little bit vague but let's say we're out of the pandemic

[00:51:38] at the end of 2021 sort of October November 21 yeah right that's about right isn't it it's a

[00:51:44] blur so we'd be in a bad 18 months in and out and it became pretty obvious within a

[00:51:49] few months of that but you know it was going to take a while for global travel retail to restart

[00:51:55] you know people getting back into flying around the world and buying two bottles of gin on their

[00:51:58] way out and two bottles of gin on their way in which is what all Australians do we realized that

[00:52:04] you know pubs and clubs and restaurants and bars who had not been open for 18 months you know we're

[00:52:11] going to be much more cautious about what they ordered and what what what spirits they bought

[00:52:16] and you know we and also our export markets that we hadn't even been able to visit for the best

[00:52:20] part of two years we're struggling because people were getting we're going much more local right so

[00:52:27] the American market was saying well we do we really need craft gin from Australia or can we just

[00:52:31] get craft gin from Colorado or or California or Idaho wherever we are similarly in the UK you know

[00:52:37] we've seen a huge growth in the small craft gin businesses based in England as an example so

[00:52:45] by by the early part of 2022 we knew that the the mechanics that we had in place for the second

[00:52:52] tranche of the sale were just were decimated so we had to start to think about how we could

[00:52:56] retool it and to their credit at Lion you know we said look the the what we what we have in this

[00:53:03] contract about the price that you may may or may not pay for the second half of the business is a

[00:53:09] nonsense now we need to rewrite it and we need to recraft it so you buy a better business and we

[00:53:16] get the affair a fair a price and that we don't just chase crazy sales in one financial year in

[00:53:22] order to hit a K a financial KPI crazy little bit target and a crazy net sales target that we will

[00:53:29] do by shafting the brand and over selling and underpricing and um sacking the wrong people in order to

[00:53:39] hit a number that satisfies us and to their credit it took about the best part of six nine months

[00:53:45] for us to negotiate a an agreed price for the second half of the business and and that's what

[00:53:52] ended up happening in July this year just past and so a burning question I wanted to ask you was

[00:54:00] was what Lion were really buying I mean there's a lot of M&A a lot of transactions done

[00:54:06] a lot of it's about synergies on the you know finances uh fine you know bottom line

[00:54:13] do we have a and what you just said then about this a bit their capacity and willingness to

[00:54:20] kind of reframe things did they how much of it was a fundamentally buying a brand

[00:54:28] versus just some physical assets and some revenue streams yeah they don't I mean I always say

[00:54:38] that no one buys no one buys a anything other than a brand if they're smart right I mean in our

[00:54:46] industry at the very least you know there's they didn't need to buy

[00:54:51] alcohol machines they have a lot of alcohol machines right they they didn't need to buy

[00:54:56] stills because anyone can just go out to the market and buy a still what you can't buy is

[00:55:00] a brand that exists with a huge amount of customer loyalty that exists with huge amount of awareness

[00:55:05] that exists with a huge amount of um love you know people loved four pillars by mistake right

[00:55:10] you can't that's they don't love your physical assets they don't love the bottling line

[00:55:15] and that and the forklift and the and the stills even they love the the whole of the business they

[00:55:22] love maybe the heels full and the people who represent us and the brand itself and the gin

[00:55:26] itself obviously so you you buy the goodwill around the business right but you know because

[00:55:34] you already have established that the gin itself is world-class that the hospitality is excellent

[00:55:39] that the people are good you know and so you buy the whole of the business and so with

[00:55:45] they um and and and interestingly you know you you probably don't get the the multiple that you

[00:55:53] might if you were a beer business because with a beer business selling into a beer business they

[00:55:57] can just plug you in and triple your sales overnight because you know so for instance that stone and

[00:56:02] wood that happened the year before we sold him to um lion stone and wood sold into lion

[00:56:09] and that was a that's that's a great brand and they're buying a beautiful brand and great

[00:56:13] beer and everything else but that's your synergy play right because another beer brand another tap

[00:56:19] a really popular brand you know we can make it probably less expensively but just as well

[00:56:25] and we can you know whatever their sales numbers are now through independent distributors you know

[00:56:31] which which a brand like stone and wood would have had can be traveled by plugging them into a

[00:56:35] a business where we sell four x and two is new and west end and swan so um there's um they they

[00:56:44] didn't have that infrastructure with spirits that they did with beer although they did have

[00:56:49] they had a growing infrastructure of spirits distribution so that was that was important to

[00:56:54] us as well yeah um should you yeah i like i think with small businesses their

[00:57:03] you know brands kind of and good wheels a dirty word in a lot of ways because you know what

[00:57:09] what buyers tell you they're looking for is you know secure revenues and but i i just think this

[00:57:15] highlights that that um there is um if you if you care care about your business and build a brand

[00:57:23] and a story it you know it's got a it's got to help to differentiate you at least if not make

[00:57:29] it easy to sell at the right time um was was there a sense for you and the the co-founders of

[00:57:36] selling your baby after all this time did like roll forward to just recently what's what's the

[00:57:43] for you particularly because you're out um that's still very fresh yeah that's that's that's very

[00:57:49] fresh for me i mean i'm in a um yeah i'm in that place right now like literally as recently as

[00:57:58] yesterday where i saw some forca was um you know stock rolling into a bar and i'm like uh you know

[00:58:04] and i had both both positive and negative vibes around what was happening and i i i don't really

[00:58:12] know what i meant to do about it because i can't be the guy who texts the marketing director or the

[00:58:18] or the head of sales and has a crack at them about something because it's not my job anymore um but

[00:58:24] i also can't be a guy who is this negative Nancy about stuff to others and i also um you know i

[00:58:32] can't i can't interfere with you know we've made a decision to sell the business and there are

[00:58:39] other people now running the business and you've got to give them their space and that's not easy

[00:58:44] for me i mean you know the other boys are still in the business so they can say whatever the bloody

[00:58:47] hell they want because they're still they're still involved in the business so every every

[00:58:51] day and i still get a salary um and equally you know like i've got to be careful that i don't keep

[00:58:58] you know i i just don't keep engaging with a business that i'm no longer employed by

[00:59:06] right i i i you've got to you've got to yeah i mean uh

[00:59:11] it actually is really difficult and it's probably going to be more it's probably going to be difficult

[00:59:17] for the next frankly a couple of years who who knows true it's a very you know it's a very personal

[00:59:22] thing and and it's you know it's deep-seated and it's it's completely understandable and natural and

[00:59:28] for you for me you know it's it's all going to be different but yeah it's um i mean not just you

[00:59:34] know evidence of you know how much the the the trip meant you know in terms of starting it and

[00:59:40] getting it to where it is but you know as we talked about the start there'll be there'll be other

[00:59:46] opportunities um that will really excite you and um you know i'm i'm sure that it sounds like you're

[00:59:53] getting plenty coming away if you might get real options i'm just not sure how many of them are

[01:00:00] good and i'm not we're getting good at saying you know this is you know this is uh in the to do pile

[01:00:06] all the yeah i hope so i hope so i i um yeah it's um um i think one of the interesting things without

[01:00:17] getting overtly philosophical philosophical about life and and you know being a you know a middle

[01:00:23] age white man but i think it's interesting and important to continually challenge yourself right

[01:00:29] and this is a challenge for me it's both it's not necessarily a challenge for me in in in

[01:00:34] creating something but it's a challenge for me in figuring out how i can

[01:00:38] if if i can slow down or if i can make measured decisions because i'm not necessarily

[01:00:48] good at that i'm more about just drive and keep going through things and having a crack and if

[01:00:56] you fuck it up just try another route and all that sort of stuff and like um it's an interesting

[01:01:01] i'm planning to get a really um like a genuine challenge to pull back

[01:01:07] because you're hard you're hard to pull back guy i'm a push forward guy and pull back is not

[01:01:14] is not my um my natural disposition so yeah i'll be interested to see if i'm even capable of doing

[01:01:20] it over the next six months yeah it's like it's pretty it is pretty fresh and raw so you know i

[01:01:27] i think if i could give you a little bit of counsel just you know work your way through it

[01:01:31] no it's um you know i have i have dealt with a a lot of owners and they get to a point where they

[01:01:42] think they should sell uh they get to the point where they have to sell but however they get there

[01:01:48] afterwards it's it's it's really different for a lot of them and and you know so for me i'm trying

[01:01:56] to you know work i do trying to encourage owners when you think about having an exit

[01:02:03] yeah that that's one of the things you ought to think about but the others are what are you gonna

[01:02:07] do where are you gonna find what are other ways to run your business so you have a bit you know

[01:02:12] a bit each way but fundamentally you know and before you can answer any of those questions

[01:02:18] you have to kind of ask yourself you know what am i happiest doing and going from working

[01:02:25] and putting everything you've got and that's not you know that that can be

[01:02:29] being out of balance is probably not what we're advising here but when you when you can't

[01:02:34] unequivocally can't constrain yourself you're excited and you want to put everything into it

[01:02:39] it's pretty hard to stop and go walk the dog or you know whatever so uh yeah well

[01:02:43] i need some hobbies that's what i've realized that's like golf is going to become important i need

[01:02:49] something to occupy my mind well yeah we we all do it's it's it's it's it's stimulating and it's

[01:02:56] healthy and um you know so um so i know you've got um some commitments um

[01:03:03] look really enjoyed chatting through thank you for being you know so open and insightful about

[01:03:14] something that you know it's gotten a lot of press and you know it's a it's a big deal

[01:03:21] sound like Donald Trump um but you know it's a significant deal and it's you know congratulations

[01:03:28] to all three of you for you know going through that from the beginning to where you got to and

[01:03:34] yeah but yeah it's um yeah it's nothing there's nothing for owners to hear from other owners and

[01:03:42] founders about you know what what it was like so i hope they i'm sure they will take a lot out of

[01:03:46] today i i look forward to you and i catching up when you're down our way for that that game of

[01:03:55] golf and round of golf are quite loney i mean uh lonestyle links yeah right yeah it's a beauty

[01:04:00] so um astute anything you wanted to close out on in terms of

[01:04:08] encouraging more people to get into small business and to stay in in the way that works for them

[01:04:15] yeah look i mean i'm i'm i'm in you know i'm i'm i'm a huge advocate for for small business but

[01:04:22] i don't get any once you never underestimate how how challenging and difficult it is right it's

[01:04:26] not it's not an easy option it's clearly the hard option the easy option is go get a job for the

[01:04:31] working for the man and in a big company and just um suck it up and and take a paycheck and do it

[01:04:37] that small business is is hard but it's also infinitely more in my in my opinion this is my

[01:04:43] thinking it's infinitely more satisfying than anything you will ever do in the business and

[01:04:47] environment because if you pick a small business and it's something that that really is a passion

[01:04:51] of yours and i was actually talking to one of my kids about this you know because you know that

[01:04:55] there's this generation of work-life balance you know this whole idea of you know you got to have

[01:04:59] work-life balance and that's predicated on the fact that you hate work and love life right that

[01:05:04] that you want to get so you need a balance between the two now now what i said is what if you work is

[01:05:11] is the most fun you have in your life like and everything you do not everything not every day is

[01:05:17] is roses right but it's a job that satisfies you that that that stimulates you that encourages you

[01:05:24] that makes you happy that makes you really you know that that pushes you in in all manner of ways

[01:05:32] then work-life balance disappears because work is great and and and it'll help make you life great

[01:05:39] too because the one of the reasons about work with the the work-life balance is such a challenge

[01:05:42] is because people come out of the work part of that grumpy and miserable and and and anxious and

[01:05:51] if if you come out of the work part of it positive and vibey and energetic then you're a better

[01:05:58] person to live with frankly so your life side of it is probably is better and i love i have

[01:06:04] loved my experience in four pillars and i've loved the ten years that i had there and i also

[01:06:09] love my liquid ideas experience um and it's it's and i've learned a lot from it about about not just

[01:06:16] about business and how to do deals and all that sort of stuff but equally about myself and how i how i

[01:06:21] how i operate and yep and i think it's made me better about a human at 54 than i might have been

[01:06:27] had i not done it so i mean look if you're going to start a small business don't ever think for a

[01:06:31] minute that it's going to be easy it's a relentless slog right but it it can be a hugely um gratifying

[01:06:38] invigorating, relentless slog if you're doing something you truly love and i was lucky in that

[01:06:47] regard so and and and if the exit comes i don't even know if i'm if i'm capable whether or not i'm

[01:06:55] gonna ever gonna live this down but if the exit comes and you do have to leave leave with grace

[01:07:01] and and try to pull the pin and don't second guess all the people who come after you and certainly

[01:07:11] don't disparage the people who come after you don't roll your eyes that i would have done it better

[01:07:15] this way it's a very strong there's a very strong there's a very there's like a giant magnet pulling

[01:07:25] you towards yeah staying involved and you've just got to turn it yourself back out i think that when

[01:07:31] that that exit does come a fundamentally important decision you should have already made is what what's

[01:07:40] next what what fills in because there is that you've just talked about there is a gap and and it's

[01:07:47] and it's it's not about we're not talking about finances financial stuff here we're talking about

[01:07:52] you know purpose and you know and commitment and fulfillment and all those things and and it

[01:07:59] so you know anytime contemplating getting out i you know you've got to have a sense of what what

[01:08:05] replaces that doesn't have to replace it at it's 50 hours or 60 hours a week but it's you got to

[01:08:11] got to go you know have a view of what you can do next so hey Stu Gregor thanks very much if

[01:08:19] if anybody wanted to to reach out to you is there you're happy for for i pop i'm go on my link

[01:08:26] did you've got my linked in having you there is that the best way yeah so is it so Stuart Gregor

[01:08:31] Stuart Gregor and i'll linked in and um we'll fix your message yep

[01:08:36] and again thank you for your time and uh you stay well thank you michael thanks thanks for having

[01:08:44] me really enjoyed the chat thanks a lot great thanks Stu