James Meldrum co-founder of Whole Kids on a tumultuous 18 years. Rich insights for all founders and owners.

[00:00:00] Hi, it's Michael Kerr here presenting Small Business Banter.

[00:00:12] Welcome to the Small Business Banter podcast. I'm Michael Kerr your host and I'm also the founder of Kerr Capital where I work day to day with business owners.

[00:00:21] The Small Business Banter podcast is built just for business owners and will be especially relevant if you're an owner looking to sell,

[00:00:29] if you've been unexpectedly approached by a potential buyer or if you're an aspiring owner about to buy a new business.

[00:00:36] There's a lot on the line personally and financially. It's stressful, it's emotional and it's usually new territory.

[00:00:45] So to help each episode of Small Business Banter is a discussion between me and another business owner or an experienced Small Business Advisor.

[00:00:55] We talk about their experiences.

[00:00:57] So what you'll get is practical real life advice, different takes on everyday problems and a renewed confidence to tackle your own business challenges.

[00:01:23] Welcome into addition 144 of Small Business Banter the podcast.

[00:01:29] I'm really pleased today to be joined by James Meldrum. Welcome into Small Business Banter, James.

[00:01:38] Thank you, Michael. It's lovely to be here.

[00:01:40] You've been very generous in volunteering to come on. We've traded a few emails and I think we've tracked each other's business lives over the last 15, 20 years.

[00:01:54] But James, I'm going to let James do all the talking today.

[00:02:02] James and his wife, Monica, had founded a business called Whole Kids.

[00:02:12] It's gone through a pretty traumatic last few months, you know, culminating after 18 years of owning and starting running that business.

[00:02:25] So we're going to talk in depth about what's going on there but take from that some of the lessons that James and Monica have learned to share with other owners.

[00:02:37] We're going to talk at the end about what James is doing to move on to another opportunity, another phase of life.

[00:02:47] But James, could you give us a little bit about your pretty diverse background?

[00:02:54] You started by my account for businesses but you've also had a couple of directives and worked in big corporate.

[00:03:03] Sure. Well, actually my previous incarnation was as a town planner, believe it or not.

[00:03:10] So I started off being a town planner.

[00:03:12] No, it wasn't. I've subconsciously buried that now.

[00:03:18] Or consciously buried it.

[00:03:20] But yeah, I started off as a town planner and worked for a number of years in that sector and just kind of realized that it wasn't quite for me.

[00:03:27] So I ended up being accepted into an MBA at Melbourne University, Melbourne Business School and completed that and then worked in corporate

[00:03:37] and it was kind of opened my eyes really to the whole corporate world which was very different to the town planning world.

[00:03:44] And from there I worked in a lot of quite a few big, big companies.

[00:03:50] So Telstra, CBA, ANZ, BHP and worked in more sort of strategy, business planning and marketing roles.

[00:03:59] And I worked there, worked in that sector for about 10 years.

[00:04:04] And when I was actually studying I was quite fortunate to be chosen to do an exchange program over to Georgetown University in the US during my final semester which opened my eyes even further.

[00:04:17] And very much on the business side opened my eyes to I guess what's now become quite popular is sort of purpose led businesses and values led businesses.

[00:04:27] And at that time, you know, I'm going back a long, long, long time. This is 1992 so well over 30 years ago.

[00:04:35] And at that stage, you know, this idea of purpose led businesses or values led businesses was really very new.

[00:04:42] And in fact the MBA you wasn't even touched on it wasn't even spoken about.

[00:04:46] No, it was very finance driven. In fact, you know, the typical career path out of the MBA was to be a management consultant or an investment banker or you know, an analyst, business analyst or something like that.

[00:04:59] But while I was there, you know, it was quite open. I opened to see these businesses like, you know, Ben & Jerry's and Patagonia and you know companies like Method Cleaning and Stonyfield Yoga that had just sort of emerged

[00:05:11] and were starting to do business very differently to I guess the way you were taught in an MBA about how business should be run.

[00:05:19] And it actually kind of resonated with me a lot more than the teachings of an MBA.

[00:05:26] And I felt that, you know, and not only struck a chord, you know, logically and mentally thinking, you know, this actually makes sense.

[00:05:33] But, you know, also emotionally and sort of in the heart it's like, well I think this is where, you know, my personal values really lie.

[00:05:42] And so I came back and then, you know, as I said, I worked in Telstra and big companies and I just felt this dissonance between those sort of organizational cultures and what I was seeking.

[00:05:54] And after about, you know, 10 years or so, 15 years, my wife and I were actually thinking she was working in corporate as well.

[00:06:02] We were doing up in Sydney and we were getting quite set up with these environments and thinking, you know, that must be a better way.

[00:06:08] There must be something a more satisfying way to earn a living.

[00:06:11] And we just started tossing business ideas around and, you know, I guess we had no real intention of setting up a business together,

[00:06:19] but we were just exploring ideas and something that always seemed to come up in our discussions was the conversations we were having with older brothers and sisters and other siblings.

[00:06:32] And, you know, we've got I think on last count there's about 19 nieces and nephews in our family, combined family.

[00:06:40] So, and we were, we're the youngest, just a small community, a good market research panel right there.

[00:06:48] And at that time this is going back about sort of 2000 and early 2000, 2002 or so.

[00:06:54] You know, we didn't have kids at the time but a common complaint or frustration we heard from our brothers and sisters was just how hard it was to find healthy food for their kids, healthy snacks,

[00:07:06] particularly once they're starting to go to school and, you know, the great lunchbox dilemma and so on.

[00:07:12] And we thought, my God, you know, is this the future we're facing?

[00:07:14] This battle to try and feed kids, you know, a healthy and nutritious lunch and even snacks.

[00:07:20] And, you know, we just sort of, just sort of thought, oh, maybe that's an idea worth pursuing.

[00:07:25] And we kind of explored and thought, well, you know, we don't want this to face this issue when and if we start having children.

[00:07:31] And so we just started exploring it, talking to people that we knew and we found that.

[00:07:38] And this is around the dinner table.

[00:07:40] This is coming home from a corporate job.

[00:07:44] It is. Yes. So, you know, I have a nice bottle of red and thinking, well, okay, that day's done.

[00:07:50] Let's start doing this, getting serious about some other things.

[00:07:54] And, you know, and it just kept coming back to this sort of problem.

[00:07:59] And we thought, well, someone must be solving this problem.

[00:08:03] So, you know, we sort of just in our own spare time, we just sort of walked around supermarkets and looked at the snack aisles, the baby aisles and things like that

[00:08:10] and talked to some people that we knew in the organic food industry.

[00:08:14] And no one was really addressing it.

[00:08:17] And then we talked to other friends of ours who had had kids because we were, you know, we were sort of late to the party on children.

[00:08:25] And it was a common refrain right across everyone.

[00:08:28] We thought, well, this is a bigger problem than just, you know, within our own family.

[00:08:34] And it kind of just, you know, it just sort of germinated into an idea of like, well, okay, maybe there's something, maybe there's something we can do about this.

[00:08:43] And at the same time, you know, this kind of seed that had been planted while I was studying in America around, you know, sort of purpose businesses and values-based business.

[00:08:56] And I thought, well, if we're going to do this, you know, we don't want to be recreating this kind of business environment or this business machine that we'd been working in that's obviously frustrating us.

[00:09:09] So, you know, let's be focused on our personal values and let's build a business based on what we think a business should be run.

[00:09:17] Which was a very, I guess, you know, for us, it's a new way of thinking.

[00:09:22] But for us, you know, it seemed almost entirely natural to go down this path and, you know, not to focus-

[00:09:28] You had really strong alignment between this idea for a business and where you both were personally?

[00:09:35] Yeah, very much so. And Monica was coming from a similar personal direction as well.

[00:09:41] She'd spent time during uni on an aid project in Indonesia and worked with a lot of kids in very remote communities in, you know, helping them build playgrounds and things like this and support services.

[00:09:55] And she was very much driven as well. So she was getting as frustrated as I am with sort of the corporate structure and thought, well, okay.

[00:10:03] But again, we kind of didn't think we'd be working together on a business. We were just exploring ideas.

[00:10:09] But anyway, you know, one thing led to another and, you know, as we talked to more and more people, we realized that there is a potential opportunity here.

[00:10:21] Because obviously what mums and dads were seeking was not available in, you know, the mainstream supermarkets at the time

[00:10:29] and certainly not in, you know, really specialty stores. You really had to hunt out products and most of it was from overseas.

[00:10:37] And a lot of it didn't taste great. You know, it wasn't inconvenient packaging and kind of the flavors were very, you know, either US-centric or, you know, it's kind of...

[00:10:46] So it wasn't really a satisfying products range that was available at the time.

[00:10:53] So we started putting our thoughts together and thought, okay, well, let's... what could we make?

[00:10:57] It sounds like a double whammy. You're going after a new food offering organic and you are going with a structure around purpose.

[00:11:06] And which, you know, that's probably two levels of complexity higher than a lot of other business launches.

[00:11:16] You know, fairly grand ambitions.

[00:11:18] Yeah, I think it's probably even a triple whammy, Michael, because none of us had food industry background either.

[00:11:24] So we were stepping into a sector where we had absolutely no idea what we were really doing.

[00:11:30] And I think in one respect that gave us, you know, a slight advantage because sometimes if you don't know what you don't know, then you can ask quite obtuse questions

[00:11:39] and you can, you know, you can explore things and analyze things in a different way, not just necessarily except industry conventions

[00:11:47] and the way things are always done.

[00:11:49] And we came up a lot against those sort of barriers about, well, why would you do this?

[00:11:55] You know, there's no need. There's no market need. There's no customer need.

[00:11:58] Why would you be even looking at this and...

[00:12:01] Presumably a lot of that was coming from the established businesses who were corporates.

[00:12:08] Yes, they were. Yes.

[00:12:09] Yeah, and even suppliers that we were talking it to.

[00:12:15] I mean, one of the first products we did was a Tetra Organic Juice, 100% Apple Juice.

[00:12:21] And it was just no added sugar, no preservatives, just pure organic apples.

[00:12:27] And even, you know, talking to a juice processor baguette that made that thing,

[00:12:32] well, why don't you add this in? Why don't you add a preservative?

[00:12:34] It's like, well, that's not what we're about. We don't want to add any artificial stuff at all.

[00:12:39] And then you go and talk to a packaging supplier and say, OK, we want to make this Tetra Juice box.

[00:12:45] And they'd say, well, minimum run is a quarter of a million units.

[00:12:49] So it's like, we haven't even got a customer yet.

[00:12:51] So I mean...

[00:12:52] So this was the first incarnation of whole kids, right?

[00:12:57] So that's your first product there.

[00:13:00] Yes.

[00:13:01] And it obviously went on to have quite a substantial range, very broad range of organic juice.

[00:13:08] But in a sentence, what was whole kids in terms of a company or a business?

[00:13:17] It was focused on children-only organic products.

[00:13:21] You tell me.

[00:13:23] Yeah. Well, we sort of clarified our purpose around making it easier for mums and dads to create happy, healthy life for their kids.

[00:13:33] So there was no mention of products there or the kinds of products we would make.

[00:13:38] And yes, we were starting in the food industry to start with.

[00:13:41] But we always envisage that this brand and this business would expand beyond food to, you know, to service other needs that parents and families had around.

[00:13:52] You know, not necessarily organic, but, you know, sustainable, healthy, nutritious, safe products as well.

[00:13:59] Because, you know, if you think of things like even toys and clothing, you know, there's still opportunities there.

[00:14:05] Even when we were talking that's...

[00:14:07] So we could visualize it sort of mentally, we had sort of mapped out, but we wanted to start in food because we felt that was the most pressing and urgent need and point of frustration for people.

[00:14:19] And where did whole kids get to at peak?

[00:14:25] Yeah. So we ended up being ranged in about 3,000 points of distribution.

[00:14:31] So we were ranged in Woolworths and Coles, Chemists Warehouse, IGAs.

[00:14:37] This is over an 18-year period, Michael.

[00:14:40] So, you know, it grew very rapidly to start with.

[00:14:44] We were doubling revenue every year.

[00:14:46] And that was purely Monica and I going door-to-door selling to specialty stores.

[00:14:52] This time you'd left, you both had left thrown in your corporate jobs.

[00:14:57] Yes.

[00:15:00] We had, yes.

[00:15:02] Actually the trigger point was 2005 and that was the real, you know, sort of the watershed moment of when the first organic expo was being held in Australia, up in Sydney.

[00:15:14] And we thought, right, there's a line in the sand for us.

[00:15:17] So, you know, yes, we haven't had, you know, commercially made samples, but commercially made volumes of stock.

[00:15:23] But we had commercially made samples that we could show people and they could try it.

[00:15:27] So we thought, let's go to this organic expo.

[00:15:29] You know, if the response is great, let's go all in.

[00:15:31] If it's not, we'll, you know, tails between our legs.

[00:15:35] We'll go back to the desk wherever we're working.

[00:15:38] Do you feel like there was always the plan B?

[00:15:43] Well, plan B was never, plan B was never really an attractive plan.

[00:15:50] But look, you know, the response actually blew us away.

[00:15:55] You know, we, and you know, from my background in marketing and brand, I kind of deliberately kind of took a little approach where I wanted to make a presence that we were kind of a little bit bigger than we really were.

[00:16:08] Like I wanted to give this impression that we were an established brand and, you know, we're already out there when in actual fact we weren't.

[00:16:14] So we took a big space at the expo.

[00:16:18] You know, we opened it right out.

[00:16:20] We, you know, colorful branding, you know, everything talked about our purpose and what we were trying to achieve.

[00:16:25] And yes, you know, we had a table with literally a tub of juice underneath that we'd sample out.

[00:16:33] But the response from parents was, and even potential retailers was just amazing.

[00:16:39] And you know, even some people came up and said, look, I buy your product.

[00:16:44] I love it.

[00:16:45] And it's like, well, that's not possible.

[00:16:46] We're not even in stores yet.

[00:16:48] But it gave the impression, I think that, you know, we were already there and we didn't need to sort of educate people too much about what we're about.

[00:16:57] And yes, there was an education process, but it already started by that stage.

[00:17:02] Was it a validation point for you both that we're really onto something here?

[00:17:08] Yeah, very much so.

[00:17:10] Both from the customer and both from, you know, the retailer.

[00:17:16] So we got retail orders then and there that weekend.

[00:17:19] We even got some overseas export orders.

[00:17:22] And, you know, we also got the mums and dads and kids loving the products and walking away.

[00:17:29] And the next Monday we flew back to Melbourne and we said, right, that's it.

[00:17:33] We're all in.

[00:17:35] And we moved all the savings that we'd had for a home loan deposit over into our first production run of the juice, the organic juice.

[00:17:44] That minimum volume we had to achieve.

[00:17:47] So it all went into that.

[00:17:48] Yeah. So and then we're off and running.

[00:17:52] That's when plan B is really out the door and it's all plan A right where we're all in.

[00:17:59] Yeah, you are.

[00:18:00] And I think when you've committed, you know, you potentially all your life savings into it, you're in.

[00:18:09] By this time put a couple of years into it maybe?

[00:18:11] Yeah, this that was probably three years of solid product development research.

[00:18:18] You know, we did take a couple of trip savers to see some trade shows there, which were probably five or six years ahead of Australia.

[00:18:24] So we could actually see where the market was potentially going and what the categories would look like.

[00:18:29] So we thought, you know, the market will move here eventually and we want to be at that point in five years time that we're an accepted brand and we can get distribution or wide distribution.

[00:18:45] So yeah, it was 2005 that we officially launched it in market and start generating revenue from them.

[00:18:55] What were you a big corporation at that point?

[00:18:59] Or did that come later?

[00:19:01] That came much later. In fact, yeah, it's curious because we were having these discussions with retailers and it wasn't long after we launched that Coles actually knocked on our door and said they want us in their stores.

[00:19:15] We want to range you and we they kind of been following us around trade shows for a couple of years and eventually they said, come in for a meeting and we had a meeting with them.

[00:19:27] And, you know, we were talking about our purpose and what we stood for.

[00:19:31] And there was almost like a bit of blank stairs.

[00:19:33] It was like, well, yeah, the juice is really yes.

[00:19:36] But the juice is great.

[00:19:38] We wanted on the shelves.

[00:19:39] It's like, yeah, but we also know this is what we stand for.

[00:19:41] It's like, yeah, yeah, but let's talk. Let's talk numbers and you know, so we talked about margins and prices and we realized we, you know, we've premium organic products, you know, low volume kind of cost structure.

[00:19:53] So we couldn't hit economies of scale yet.

[00:19:56] So the price was just too high.

[00:19:58] So, you know, we sort of thank Coles and said, you know, let's come back and reconvene where we can perhaps increase our volume and get our cost structure down a bit.

[00:20:07] But they kept asking us back, you know, every year.

[00:20:11] It's like, well, and eventually it's like, well, we kind of know what this conversation is going to be like because our cost structure hasn't changed.

[00:20:17] But there was a very fortunate kind of, I guess you could say synchronicity.

[00:20:22] There was change in buyers one year and there was two women who were job sharing the role.

[00:20:29] Now both moms and they've both bought our products from a other store.

[00:20:33] And they said, no, we can't let we need this. We need whole kids in Coles.

[00:20:36] We need this to happen for us.

[00:20:38] So that was very fortuitous because it allowed us to talk to a buyer that actually understood what we were about and what we're trying to achieve.

[00:20:47] So we could have more meaningful conversations about, you know, exact product range and formulations, you know, not just focus on price and margin.

[00:20:56] They got you.

[00:20:58] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:20:59] Yeah.

[00:20:59] It was absolutely a real milestone for you both to hear that.

[00:21:05] It really was, yeah. And they were fantastic. They were very supportive in, you know, then we then developed another range because they wanted to move down in age.

[00:21:14] And so we developed more of a toddler range under the whole kids banner.

[00:21:19] So it allowed us to, you know, explore things and have the distribution there for us to be able to test it in market virtually.

[00:21:27] So it's a great way to test and validate products having a partner like that there.

[00:21:33] But then what you know,

[00:21:35] No, in what you've described already in 15 minutes, the trials and tribulations of a startup are extraordinary.

[00:21:47] What the level of personal commitment, the ups and downs, the yeses and the noes and it's, it takes some doing to get it to,

[00:21:56] you know, to 18 years in your case.

[00:21:59] But yeah, so, you know, I admire all founders and business owners that just keep on keeping on.

[00:22:07] When I see you about to say something.

[00:22:09] Oh, I was going to say, I was going to refer to your original question about B Corp.

[00:22:15] So B Corp, we got certified in 2012.

[00:22:21] And we were one of the first B Corps in Australia to be certified.

[00:22:24] And I was actually looking at it a couple of years prior to it started in the US and I was actually undergoing the assessment.

[00:22:33] And it kind of, because no one else in Australia was a B Corp at the time.

[00:22:36] And so we actually would have been the first.

[00:22:40] But the B Corp assessment was very US centric and was asking a lot of questions which weren't relevant to us.

[00:22:46] And I thought, well, you know, in our view, the organic certification provides accreditation and authenticity around our products.

[00:22:58] And I was looking at B Corp to provide authenticity and third party verification about us as a business about how we do it.

[00:23:08] And governance and sustainability and social impact and employee welfare.

[00:23:16] And all those things. And there was nothing else available. There was only this B Corp certification, but it seemed so US centric at the time that I thought it seemed like a lot of money and it didn't seem relevant to the Australian market.

[00:23:27] So, but then I went out to dinner with a friend of mine who said, oh, we've actually just started the whole process of B Corp certification.

[00:23:36] I went, what? Okay, well, let's do it.

[00:23:38] Okay, so we did it as well. And we were one of the first along with this other company to be certified.

[00:23:44] So and that's now grown into I think two to two and a thousand companies here or something.

[00:23:49] I think so it's been phenomenal.

[00:23:50] Yeah, I am intrigued at how many employees or full time equivalents you got to with whole kids.

[00:24:02] And when was that?

[00:24:04] Yeah, that was probably well initially we started off with, as I said, just Monaco and I going door to door selling.

[00:24:12] And then as business grew, we realized there were some certain stress points in the business.

[00:24:17] So we needed to employ someone in our warehouse and logistics and packing and get it all that sort of an end.

[00:24:24] And then we realized that our time was being much more drawn into production, new product development, marketing and working with key accounts.

[00:24:36] So we started bringing in sales team.

[00:24:39] And we ended up having, well, I think in our mind quite a large sales force, sales rep force.

[00:24:46] So we had at least one person in every state.

[00:24:49] And we ended up having about two or three in Victoria from memory.

[00:24:52] And at that point, that was probably the largest we ever got to because the sales force actually outnumbered everyone else in the team.

[00:25:00] And I think we maybe, you know, 10, 15.

[00:25:02] Yeah, we probably got to probably not 15 full time equivalent, but certainly there were about 14 or 15 people involved and some of them were part-time or casuals.

[00:25:12] And then, you know, what we found was that the territory has just started to sort of level off after a while.

[00:25:23] You know, the prospecting decreased and pretty much kind of saturated certain territories.

[00:25:28] And so then we started looking at key accounts and eventually we restructured it so that we outsourced all the warehousing logistics to a 3PL provider because that was becoming an increasingly high fixed cost on our business.

[00:25:43] So we outsourced that.

[00:25:44] And then we realized that we've moved to more of an outsourced sales model as well.

[00:25:49] It allowed us greater flexibility, allowed us to reach more markets geographically.

[00:25:54] We still kept a couple of sales reps on in the key states.

[00:26:01] And eventually we kind of moved to, you know, when we, before the end of the business, we moved to an entirely outsourced model where it was almost just Monaco and I running the business.

[00:26:09] But we had people who were looking after sales management, account management, looking after inventory management and so on.

[00:26:18] And at that point you're both able to use your pretty extensive educational and corporate experience in the roles you had.

[00:26:28] I mean, in early days you do everything.

[00:26:31] Yes.

[00:26:32] But then it sounded like you professionalized or you outsourced over time.

[00:26:39] But allowing you to focus on what you, you know, it's your business but these are the things we both do particularly well.

[00:26:47] Yeah, I think so.

[00:26:49] And I think fortunately for Monaco and I, we both gravitated to areas where we, I guess we had natural skills.

[00:26:57] You know, Monaco is much more of an extra there than me.

[00:26:59] So she was really good with sales and presenting to key accounts and production and work with suppliers.

[00:27:08] I'm a little bit more of an introvert and input thinking.

[00:27:11] So I was really good on the strategy side, the branding and the marketing and, you know, sort of the business analysis side of it.

[00:27:18] So, you know, looking at the financials and all that sort of stuff.

[00:27:21] But that's, you're right, Monaco, at the start we were doing everything.

[00:27:24] And in fact coming from a corporate background and an MBA educated background, you also had to unbundle a lot of the thinking that you brought to the business

[00:27:35] because you know, what you are taught in the MBA is not, well at that day in those days is not applicable to a small startup business.

[00:27:44] It isn't.

[00:27:44] It isn't.

[00:27:45] And it's more of a pity but you figured it out and I think this is, I do want to get to your transition potentially back into some role like that

[00:27:54] given all the experience you've gotten.

[00:27:56] But a couple of things, people going into business for the first time can be fooled with the experience they bring.

[00:28:06] And I mean that in the nicest, gentlest possible way but when you get into that startup environment, you have to do everything

[00:28:14] because you can't afford or don't have, you don't know who else to engage with.

[00:28:20] So you end up doing a lot of things and there's, you know, you don't want to do that for the whole period of the business.

[00:28:27] But so you've got to learn.

[00:28:29] So you clearly were able to adapt that way but also working as a couple takes them doing as well and having that natural splitting of shared interest in the success of the business

[00:28:44] but also then separating what you do well and you do that and I'll do that.

[00:28:50] So, you know, that's an excellent, you've done incredibly well there to get that far.

[00:28:57] So, you know, in the business sense, I mean.

[00:29:03] Hi there.

[00:29:04] It's just a quick interruption to the podcast and it's a message from Kerr Capital, a supporter of the podcast.

[00:29:10] If you're a business owner thinking about selling and you're unsure about what you should do,

[00:29:16] well the worst thing you can do is jump straight into an unprepared business sale.

[00:29:20] Cross your fingers and hope for the best.

[00:29:22] If you want to take control, get a sense of what your business is really worth

[00:29:27] and a plan to make it more sellable then head over onto the Kerr Capital website.

[00:29:32] Check out the value and sellability diagnosis.

[00:29:34] If it piques your interest, contact me, Michael Kerr, or book one of the free 45-minute diagnostic calls.

[00:29:43] Now let's head back to the podcast.

[00:29:48] So, I do want to go to where, how you funded the business

[00:29:55] because this is a fast moving business and even though you're outsourcing,

[00:30:02] you're investing in brand and you're investing in all sorts of systems and processes.

[00:30:07] So, up until when was the first time you brought in any external funding, bank or equity?

[00:30:17] Yeah.

[00:30:18] So at the start it was all self-funded through our own equity, our own capital.

[00:30:26] And we brought in, actually it was a family member on Monica's side that we brought in

[00:30:34] who contributed a bit of capital and also on my mum put in some money as well.

[00:30:39] But it was really, you know, it was an nominal amount of money.

[00:30:41] It was really working capital requirements and we did need, you know,

[00:30:46] we really needed a sizable injection of capital to really fund, you know,

[00:30:52] because we really were just sort of going, I wouldn't say hand to mouth,

[00:30:55] but it really was, you know, the money that was coming in was pretty much

[00:30:59] just going out straight again to buy stock and produce goods.

[00:31:04] So, you're living a pretty lean personal lifestyle through those early years?

[00:31:08] We were, yes, and we didn't pay ourselves for the first, I think probably first,

[00:31:13] or maybe 18 months or so, or it was a very minimal amount of money.

[00:31:17] It was basically grocery shopping, I think, from memory.

[00:31:20] Grocery and rent.

[00:31:22] And we had discussions with, actually, and this is a curious thing in terms of

[00:31:29] over the 80-year journey which I find quite interesting is that we spoke to

[00:31:35] over the 18 years quite a lot of potential investors,

[00:31:39] both on, you know, sort of family offices, private equity, venture capital,

[00:31:44] investment firms, even private individuals.

[00:31:48] And there was a really interesting and a curious dynamic when there's two founders,

[00:31:54] particularly male and female.

[00:31:56] And we always position Monica as kind of being the founder because of the market

[00:32:03] we were in that she's far more relatable, I think, to mums and dads

[00:32:08] than maybe your dad.

[00:32:09] But, you know, that's just subjective, but that's just the way it sort of

[00:32:12] naturally played out.

[00:32:14] But when you're in these discussions with, you know, sort of VC firms

[00:32:19] and investment firms, they're almost dismissive of the female co-founder

[00:32:26] in the room.

[00:32:27] And, you know, I could count on more than one hand, two hands,

[00:32:32] the number of conversations we had where quickly conversation was diverted

[00:32:35] solely to me and Monica was almost ignored.

[00:32:39] Or she was treated quite flippantly as, you know, not kind of a serious part

[00:32:46] of the business.

[00:32:47] And I find it quite offensive and I remember one meeting in fact, you know,

[00:32:50] they were almost making a joke of the brand name and, you know,

[00:32:53] the business and, you know, and I just thought, we've got to get out

[00:32:56] of this room because this is a horrible environment if they can,

[00:33:00] there's no way they're coming on board as investors because it would

[00:33:02] just be disastrous.

[00:33:04] We could never work with them.

[00:33:06] And that was not an uncommon experience.

[00:33:10] And it really frustrated us because we thought there must be a line

[00:33:14] of investors somewhere out there that get what we're about.

[00:33:18] And, you know, I guess that's happened in the last five to 10 years

[00:33:22] with social impact investors and coming on board and looking for

[00:33:25] purpose-driven businesses and looking for businesses that, you know,

[00:33:28] create impact and environmental, social or whatever their objective is.

[00:33:33] But at that stage it was purely about, well, how do we, you know,

[00:33:37] how do we make a lot of money out of this and how do we ramp it up

[00:33:39] and scale it?

[00:33:40] And it's kind of like, well, you know, rapid scaling is actually

[00:33:43] the last thing we need because the financial structure,

[00:33:47] the capital structure and the operating model is not solid yet.

[00:33:52] You know, it needs to grow organically almost with the

[00:33:54] evolution of the market that we're in because it was a growing

[00:33:58] market but it was still evolving.

[00:34:00] And to suddenly treat us as, you know, thinking we're suddenly

[00:34:04] this traditional FMCG brand.

[00:34:07] It's just the wrong way to think about it.

[00:34:09] Did they ever ask you what are you both personally trying to

[00:34:13] achieve or was it always about what can the business do?

[00:34:16] Like when you take, when you go to bring in business

[00:34:19] partners or take equity or the alignment thing between

[00:34:26] what the business is aiming to do and what you think,

[00:34:29] you know, you can contribute is vitally important.

[00:34:33] But also once you're in bed together as shareholders or

[00:34:37] on an advisory board or you're even a lender, whatever,

[00:34:42] you also, it's vitally important to kind of be in bed

[00:34:47] with those that you think you can manage and have a,

[00:34:53] you know, shared view of not a shared view of the world,

[00:34:56] but certainly alignment around the business.

[00:34:59] But also at some level personal, you're happy to spend time

[00:35:04] with them and debate business issues and knowing that

[00:35:07] it's respectful and it's likely to be, you know,

[00:35:12] yeah, I'm not quite sure how to frame that,

[00:35:17] but it gets overlooked and people jump in money

[00:35:22] and the money comes with personalities and values

[00:35:25] and other things that can really be very disruptive.

[00:35:29] Yeah, no, you're exactly right.

[00:35:31] And I think someone once told me, he said,

[00:35:35] even if a good test is even if you're looking at,

[00:35:39] you know, employing someone or bringing on someone

[00:35:42] as investor, if you think you can sit next to this

[00:35:45] person on a plane for three hours and have great

[00:35:47] in-depth conversations, you know,

[00:35:48] then they're the right person to bring in.

[00:35:50] But if you think it's going to be stony silence or awkward

[00:35:53] silences all the way and got to try and fight to get a

[00:35:57] conversation, it's like it's not going to work.

[00:35:59] It's never going to work.

[00:36:00] So, you know, it's the good.

[00:36:03] You know, sage advice to, I think almost to architect

[00:36:07] a few conflicts or challenges before you sign on the dotted line

[00:36:13] and see how you would go about working it out

[00:36:16] and also how they respond.

[00:36:21] Yes.

[00:36:22] The way you would, yeah, it's, but you know,

[00:36:26] you can be in a growing, fast-growing business

[00:36:29] and you can need capital debt, whatever money

[00:36:32] and, you know, it's very tempting to jump at things.

[00:36:36] But I, so that, so where did you go from there?

[00:36:41] You had some family and friends.

[00:36:42] You were talking to bigger private equity VC.

[00:36:46] What happened then and how did you take some money

[00:36:50] and develop the business further?

[00:36:54] No, we then relied on bank lending.

[00:36:57] So we relied on debt of finance because that was,

[00:37:03] because the sales were growing so much that was at that time

[00:37:07] that was a, you know, a good facility for us to have.

[00:37:12] In hindsight, I wish we kind of unbundled ourselves away from it

[00:37:16] because when sales flat line will start to decline

[00:37:18] which they did during COVID, it's a bit like a margin call.

[00:37:24] It's a bit, the devil's in the detail with data financing.

[00:37:29] So we had that facility plus we had some overdraft

[00:37:33] and we initiated later on a trade finance facility

[00:37:36] because we were just buying more and more product

[00:37:39] particularly from overseas which we needed the longer trade finance

[00:37:47] credit terms to be able to fund the, you know, the production

[00:37:51] which might be say 8 to 12 weeks and then you've got shipping

[00:37:54] and freight, you know, it might be two months there,

[00:37:57] 45, 60 days on the water maybe.

[00:38:00] So you're probably looking at maybe a three month turnaround

[00:38:03] before you receive the goods from overseas.

[00:38:06] So we needed trade finance was just not set up to do that.

[00:38:10] So we needed, sorry, data finance was not set up to do that

[00:38:15] so we needed a trade finance facility

[00:38:16] and we pretty much relied on those facilities up to the point

[00:38:20] of when we did our first crowd fund back in 2000 and 20 or 21 I think

[00:38:28] and that's when we bought in almost like 900 investors

[00:38:36] into the business.

[00:38:37] Okay, just I want to drill down on that.

[00:38:40] Are you happy to share what annual turnover you were doing

[00:38:44] at around this time?

[00:38:46] Yeah, we were doing around about 6 million.

[00:38:49] Okay.

[00:38:52] And I'm kind of not surprised that crowd funding was a vehicle

[00:38:57] for you both, you know, giving everything about the way

[00:39:01] the business started and the way you set it up as eventually

[00:39:06] as a B Corp and doing good, you know, organic food.

[00:39:11] And so what was there more than just money there?

[00:39:19] Was there a reason?

[00:39:20] I mean crowd funding can be dollars but it can also be

[00:39:23] fans and followers that yes, a few different variations.

[00:39:27] So tell us about that.

[00:39:28] Yes.

[00:39:30] So we initially we were actually I need to say probably six months

[00:39:34] prior to that decision to do a crowd fund.

[00:39:36] So we were actually in discussions with an ASX listed

[00:39:41] business to acquire us.

[00:39:44] They approached you?

[00:39:46] Yes.

[00:39:47] So we were in discussions with them back in, so it would

[00:39:52] have been bad 2019, I think, or 20.

[00:39:55] It was just, it was the year before COVID hit in a big way.

[00:40:01] So the first down 20, I think it was there.

[00:40:06] And we were in discussions with them for a couple of months

[00:40:08] and it was a serious negotiation.

[00:40:10] It was a serious offer.

[00:40:14] And we, and you know, there's a lot of learnings that

[00:40:17] we took out of that and a lot of lessons, but at the

[00:40:20] end of the day, the deal didn't proceed and there were

[00:40:22] a number of factors that influenced that.

[00:40:25] Some of them were of our own doing.

[00:40:29] And you know, we had things like we had some just we had

[00:40:32] some bad advice coming in which kind of reframed things

[00:40:35] in our minds and which was, you know, not a great thing

[00:40:39] when you're halfway through negotiations when you think

[00:40:41] oh, this is not what I thought it was going to be.

[00:40:45] And you know, on the potential acquirer, there was, you know,

[00:40:50] some personality clashes with the executive, particularly the

[00:40:53] CEO that we were rather sort of taken aback with and kind

[00:40:59] of uncomfortable, which was quite different to the

[00:41:01] initial discussion.

[00:41:02] So it kind of all unfolded that, you know, and we

[00:41:06] felt that they actually would have made a good partner

[00:41:09] for us because they had a lot of capabilities that we

[00:41:13] were lacking or that we would have to invest in ourselves

[00:41:17] to be able to keep growing and just keep scaling.

[00:41:21] So, you know, we thought there was a good fit.

[00:41:24] Unfortunately, it did unravel towards the end.

[00:41:27] And, you know, we're here today, unfortunately,

[00:41:31] the decision we are, but it would have been great to...

[00:41:35] Yeah, but it takes a lot out of you those discussions.

[00:41:39] There's a sense of excitement about, I mean,

[00:41:42] by this time you've put 15 years into the course.

[00:41:46] Correct.

[00:41:47] So in terms of seeing out that your ownership,

[00:41:53] but that's a great investment of time and energy.

[00:41:57] It is, yeah.

[00:41:58] 15 years.

[00:41:58] So I can imagine how elated you potentially were going

[00:42:02] to feel to hand it over to a good home and perhaps

[00:42:06] stay involved or at least have the opportunity

[00:42:09] to draw breath.

[00:42:12] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:42:13] And we both felt, you know, we had kids by this stage

[00:42:17] and, you know, we weren't seeing them a loss, you know?

[00:42:21] Even when we were home, we were not really home

[00:42:25] and present with them.

[00:42:26] And, you know, I'm sure a lot of founders

[00:42:29] experienced that as well with young kids

[00:42:31] and even older kids.

[00:42:32] But, you know, we felt that, yeah, the timing was right.

[00:42:36] But, you know, we were also getting a little bit tired

[00:42:39] and exhausted and also we were just constantly baffling.

[00:42:44] You know, we're working in the duopoly with the majors

[00:42:47] and it's a constant battle to stay on the shelf

[00:42:50] and requires more and more funding to stay there,

[00:42:53] you know, support promotions and so on.

[00:42:55] And it just was just ratcheting up every year

[00:42:57] and we just thought this is just now getting exhausting.

[00:43:01] And so it was, you're right.

[00:43:03] It was very welcoming and very, you know, humbling

[00:43:06] to get this offer and you think, right,

[00:43:08] you know, this is a way for us to exit out

[00:43:09] but keep the brand going and be involved in some capacity.

[00:43:14] Unfortunately, it didn't work out.

[00:43:16] And then COVID hit and then everything just went to crap,

[00:43:22] basically.

[00:43:23] And for us, our experience was that we lost about

[00:43:29] a third of our revenue overnight

[00:43:32] because we were servicing the airlines

[00:43:35] with kids' meals and special meals

[00:43:37] and that disappeared straight away.

[00:43:39] So 30% of our revenue disappeared

[00:43:42] and it was good, you know, it was good margin revenue for us

[00:43:45] which was really disappointing

[00:43:47] because the rest of the revenue was really tight

[00:43:49] through the majors so there wasn't a lot of margin

[00:43:51] to play with.

[00:43:53] Our overseas manufacturers, you know,

[00:43:56] in particular reverted all the credit terms

[00:44:00] so everything was now up front payment.

[00:44:03] Everyone knows about the disruptive freight conditions

[00:44:09] that happened at the time

[00:44:10] and also the cost of containers went up extraordinarily high

[00:44:13] like they went up from, I think we were paying

[00:44:16] about 5,000 containers to maybe 20, 25,000 containers.

[00:44:19] So, you know, and even then there was no guarantee

[00:44:21] that a container would actually arrive.

[00:44:22] You know, it might be offloaded in Singapore

[00:44:24] because Singapore suddenly got a COVID lockdown or something.

[00:44:28] So, you know, all those things,

[00:44:30] it was like a perfect storm of just everything hitting us

[00:44:33] and I know we're not alone in that

[00:44:35] but it really put us on the back foot almost immediately

[00:44:38] and it was like this cash cycle for us blew out from,

[00:44:42] you know, it might have been 90 days,

[00:44:45] maybe yeah, probably 80 to 90 days to 120, 150 days

[00:44:50] in some cases and we just did not have any reserves

[00:44:53] to fund that.

[00:44:56] So, we started covering all the bases.

[00:45:01] We looked at our banking facilities.

[00:45:02] We spoke to investors that we knew

[00:45:04] that we're interested from previous discussions.

[00:45:07] We then looked at crowdfunding as well

[00:45:09] and amongst all those things,

[00:45:12] we felt, you know, the bank offered some assistance

[00:45:16] but we felt crowdfunding would be the best way to,

[00:45:21] as you say, to bring into the community,

[00:45:24] into the business to help support it and grow it further

[00:45:27] whilst at the same time bringing investment capital

[00:45:32] and we turned that around.

[00:45:35] We turned that campaign around I think in about four weeks

[00:45:37] which was just, you know, even virtual.

[00:45:40] It's going how do you guys, how did you do that?

[00:45:44] So, by the time we...

[00:45:45] Well, there's a few believers out there by the sounds

[00:45:47] who really did buy into what you were about

[00:45:52] and I think, you know, I mean, you know, it's,

[00:45:56] you know, I kind of look at what's happened in that space now

[00:45:58] around crowdfunding and I think, you know,

[00:46:01] we'd already been around for 15 years.

[00:46:03] You know, we were a proven brand, proven business.

[00:46:06] You know, we had revenue, we had distribution.

[00:46:08] We've just actually been ranged into Woolworths

[00:46:11] so there was a lot of upside to the business.

[00:46:13] We just needed capital, working capital

[00:46:16] and you know, I see some businesses now on crowdfunding

[00:46:20] they've been around for a couple of months

[00:46:22] and they're already crowdfunding with no revenue.

[00:46:24] You know, I scratched my head going,

[00:46:26] oh, where's this going?

[00:46:32] So, yeah, I have a big question mark over.

[00:46:36] Yeah, and you'd banged, well, you had an audit trail

[00:46:40] and a 15-year trading history

[00:46:44] so the decisions are as informed as they can be, right?

[00:46:50] Yeah.

[00:46:52] And we also went in at a very, very conservative revenue

[00:46:58] multiple, evaluation multiple

[00:47:00] and we benchmarked that against other private sales

[00:47:05] that we knew of and also public leadership companies

[00:47:07] that we trade against

[00:47:08] and we went in really, really low compared to

[00:47:12] other ones that were trading at about, you know,

[00:47:14] six, seven times revenue.

[00:47:16] We went in at about 2.9.

[00:47:18] So we were leaving, you know, I think in our mind

[00:47:22] a lot of upside potential for investors to, you know,

[00:47:24] once Woolworths are kicked off

[00:47:25] then the valuation of the business would increase

[00:47:28] or the capitalization of the business would increase over time

[00:47:31] and just as a side, I see businesses now

[00:47:35] that are trying to raise money

[00:47:37] and absorb an evaluation multiple is an interesting...

[00:47:41] there's going to be no upside for those investors

[00:47:43] if they come in for those retail investors.

[00:47:46] Yeah, there's some...

[00:47:48] Yeah, it's an interesting thing

[00:47:50] because you're putting in small amounts of money

[00:47:52] and it's hundreds and I think hundreds

[00:47:56] potentially of investors

[00:47:57] and that sort of mentality of it's a small amount of money

[00:48:02] whether it's at a ridiculous value or not

[00:48:06] I think there are genuinely people who want to support

[00:48:10] brands and businesses that do things that they relate to

[00:48:15] so yeah, the valuation principles or fundamentals

[00:48:18] might go out the door but...

[00:48:20] Yeah, it's true.

[00:48:21] Yeah, I'm not saying it's right

[00:48:23] or I'm just saying the risk is diffused

[00:48:26] because it's a small amount of money

[00:48:27] but that sort of doesn't necessarily...

[00:48:30] you know with both of our MBA backgrounds

[00:48:33] it's not entirely rational.

[00:48:36] No, no and you know a dollar to you

[00:48:39] and a dollar to me is different to a dollar to someone else

[00:48:41] and putting $250 into an equity crowdfunding campaign

[00:48:46] for someone could be quite significant

[00:48:49] and it might be their first step into investing as well

[00:48:53] and you'd hate for them to have a bad experience.

[00:48:57] Yeah, I guess I think about this a lot with those

[00:49:01] because it's a...

[00:49:04] there's private equity and venture capital

[00:49:05] and there's duopolism, monopolies and big corporates

[00:49:08] and it's potentially a way to educate yourself

[00:49:12] losing it's like going to the races when you're 18

[00:49:16] and you lose a bit of money

[00:49:17] and you really want to figure out whether you're a gambler or not

[00:49:20] and it can be a good life lesson

[00:49:25] or a good investment lesson.

[00:49:27] Anyway, I digress.

[00:49:30] So the crowdfunding happened

[00:49:34] then what was...

[00:49:37] we're calling it 2020, what was the next few years?

[00:49:41] This is really I guess the meat of our conversation today

[00:49:46] so not to relive it

[00:49:51] but to share your experience of going through what you went through.

[00:49:54] Yeah, and it really...

[00:50:00] sort of at the start of 2023 is when

[00:50:04] a lot of those events happened

[00:50:08] that led up to the decision to put the business

[00:50:11] into administration or that decision was made

[00:50:15] and we were in...

[00:50:19] we kind of realised that this...

[00:50:22] we called the post-COVID hangover

[00:50:25] and I think a lot of businesses are still experiencing it

[00:50:29] and particularly for us is that

[00:50:31] we were still stuck in that cycle of

[00:50:35] upfront payments, shipping delays and so on

[00:50:39] and we could really never get out of that hole

[00:50:42] like it required

[00:50:46] more than the crowdfunding amount to really

[00:50:50] to put us back on track

[00:50:51] and to be able to reverse that

[00:50:57] 150 day cycle of converting cash

[00:51:00] and to re-establish terms with the suppliers

[00:51:03] and things like that.

[00:51:05] And we were...

[00:51:07] yeah, having discussions again with an investment firm

[00:51:11] probably early January that year, 23

[00:51:16] which curiously they were setting up

[00:51:19] an investment fund to invest in purpose-led businesses

[00:51:21] and businesses making impact

[00:51:24] and those discussions went on for a while

[00:51:26] probably about two months or so

[00:51:28] and we felt that, right, this is...

[00:51:31] we're at the stage of...

[00:51:34] we're selected out of sort of six businesses

[00:51:36] they're looking at to be part of their portfolio

[00:51:38] and we'll go ahead and this will be

[00:51:41] the way we can move forward

[00:51:44] and eventually what happens is that

[00:51:46] they shut that whole fund down

[00:51:48] so we weren't the only one who missed out on being selected

[00:51:51] for the fund, in fact they closed the whole fund

[00:51:53] and never resurrected it

[00:51:56] but that kind of...

[00:51:57] But you're not far enough to get excited again

[00:51:59] Yeah, so it's a bit like

[00:52:03] dangling the carrot again

[00:52:06] and we thought, right, we're really on the back foot here

[00:52:09] and we really need to be able to find a way through this

[00:52:12] that can keep the business going

[00:52:15] as an ongoing concern

[00:52:17] and also take advantage of some of these opportunities

[00:52:20] that we had because we were...

[00:52:23] I mean, funnily enough we were still growing

[00:52:25] in a lot of the major supermarkets

[00:52:28] like that year up to January 23

[00:52:31] so the previous 52 weeks we'd grown

[00:52:34] sales in Woolworths by 77%

[00:52:37] we'd increased our half year revenue

[00:52:40] I think by 45%

[00:52:42] I mean, it's a good cause to go out and be in...

[00:52:45] Yeah, absolutely

[00:52:47] positive because the business is plowing ahead

[00:52:51] but your underpinning financial structure

[00:52:54] was not keeping up

[00:52:57] Yeah, and we've done a lot of things

[00:52:59] to the business, Monarch and I in terms of the cost structure

[00:53:02] so we low margin products

[00:53:05] we'd deleted or reformulated

[00:53:08] we'd done a lot of work on

[00:53:11] packaging formats and supplies

[00:53:13] and bringing supply back to Australia

[00:53:16] where we could source locally

[00:53:18] so we didn't have these high freight charges and delays

[00:53:21] and I think if you looked at our P&L at that time

[00:53:26] we'd... I think the figure was we'd increased our net profit by...

[00:53:30] like we were coming off a loss mind you, a very low base

[00:53:32] but we'd increased our profit by over 250%

[00:53:35] so all those signs directly were heading the right way

[00:53:39] it just required an investor to think

[00:53:42] so yes, I can see where this is going

[00:53:44] they've put the plan in place

[00:53:46] it just needs this amount of working capital

[00:53:49] to get over this whole that they're in

[00:53:51] and we ended up finding

[00:53:54] what we thought again was the partner

[00:53:57] and we had opened up discussions with one of the major retailers of Australia

[00:54:02] and we went... like that was far more diligence

[00:54:07] in terms of requirements on analysing the deal

[00:54:12] than the first one I talked about

[00:54:14] and we were dealing almost daily with their M&A team

[00:54:17] and it got to the point where we were discussing

[00:54:21] even job roles for Monica and myself

[00:54:24] and so we thought this is just going ahead

[00:54:26] it's just a matter of now signing

[00:54:27] giving the paperwork in order and moving ahead

[00:54:30] and we thought there would be a great outcome

[00:54:32] for the crowdfund investors as well

[00:54:36] the brand would live on

[00:54:37] and it would get the working capital that needed

[00:54:39] it just ticked all the boxes

[00:54:41] and then one morning we got...

[00:54:44] I think it was a Thursday morning I remember in July

[00:54:46] we got a call from the head of M&A at this retailer

[00:54:50] and said look we're...

[00:54:51] there's a five minute call and said we're not going ahead

[00:54:53] we're not proceeding

[00:54:55] we said why?

[00:54:56] and said oh we've got other things to do

[00:54:58] and just let us on for six to eight weeks

[00:55:01] and we put everything on hold for you

[00:55:04] and we contacted the CEO

[00:55:06] and the CEO said well I just support the M&A team

[00:55:08] we thought this is going nowhere

[00:55:09] so left us with no other options unfortunately

[00:55:12] so the next day we had to decide to

[00:55:16] make that call

[00:55:18] whether we can see ourselves trading through this

[00:55:22] or whether we feel that we have to go through

[00:55:25] a voluntary administration process

[00:55:27] to find a way to perhaps bring in a buyer

[00:55:30] and keep the brand going

[00:55:33] and the business going

[00:55:33] it was...

[00:55:35] Yeah that must have been absolutely gutting

[00:55:40] to get a call

[00:55:42] against the backdrop of this going swimmingly well

[00:55:46] and then the day after that

[00:55:50] as directors of the company presumably

[00:55:54] can we trade here

[00:55:57] and get...

[00:55:58] are we going to breach any of our obligations?

[00:56:01] I'm assuming that's what you were thinking?

[00:56:03] Yes and we spoke to our accountants and our lawyers

[00:56:06] and we felt that

[00:56:09] we obviously didn't want to

[00:56:13] do anything contrary to our directors responsibilities

[00:56:15] and fiduciary duties as directors

[00:56:17] and also we felt that

[00:56:20] even though the business was growing

[00:56:22] it still was...

[00:56:23] we're still trading on in that way

[00:56:25] we felt would have been

[00:56:29] making the situation even worse

[00:56:31] and us knowing that we've made it worse

[00:56:34] I think we just had to make that early call

[00:56:37] Do you think that having gone to three dancers

[00:56:43] with three different...

[00:56:45] that by that time

[00:56:46] you're feeling like

[00:56:49] can we even generate enough

[00:56:54] drive and desire and energy to go again?

[00:56:58] Was that in the back of your mind also?

[00:57:01] You mean if someone came through the process

[00:57:03] and bought the business and...

[00:57:05] I mean just for you two, you and Monica to say

[00:57:07] the third potential buyer is

[00:57:13] that's fallen over now

[00:57:15] to get back up and

[00:57:18] find the energy and the motivation

[00:57:20] that keep going having been through

[00:57:24] those near misses

[00:57:26] it must be important to go as just too much

[00:57:30] Yeah it is

[00:57:32] and I don't think there's been

[00:57:37] a day since we made that decision

[00:57:40] at least for me personally

[00:57:42] when we called in the administration

[00:57:45] called in the administrators

[00:57:47] at that point you have no control

[00:57:50] like you have lost your business

[00:57:52] it's gone

[00:57:53] it's now in the hands of someone else

[00:57:55] so you feel this weird sense of detachment

[00:57:58] but also it's like you're boarded a train

[00:58:04] and there's no stops on the train

[00:58:05] it just doesn't stop

[00:58:06] it just keeps going

[00:58:11] and despite all the crap

[00:58:14] that you have to go through with the administration

[00:58:15] the stresses of that

[00:58:16] and the uncertainty and the anxieties

[00:58:19] you get pulled back to those moments

[00:58:23] that you mentioned Markle

[00:58:24] those three potential deals

[00:58:26] and you think if only

[00:58:28] that had turned out different

[00:58:29] if only we hadn't done that

[00:58:31] or if only we hadn't made that decision

[00:58:33] or if only that other person hadn't advised us properly

[00:58:35] none of this we wouldn't be here today

[00:58:38] in this situation

[00:58:39] and so

[00:58:41] and when you go through that administration process

[00:58:44] which only now has almost finished up

[00:58:46] about what's today August

[00:58:48] it's almost 12 months

[00:58:53] it gives you a lot of time

[00:58:54] just to

[00:58:56] it's almost like you just wallow in it

[00:58:58] and it's just like this mud that's around you

[00:59:00] and it's very hard to get out

[00:59:01] and you feel that

[00:59:04] you shouldn't be in this mud

[00:59:08] it shouldn't be here

[00:59:09] but it is you

[00:59:10] and it sticks to you

[00:59:11] and it's really hard to get off

[00:59:12] and it's really hard to see your way through it

[00:59:16] to think

[00:59:17] and yes I could

[00:59:18] I could go again with something else

[00:59:20] or I can see a pathway forward

[00:59:24] and I've been thinking about this a lot

[00:59:25] actually with a lot of other founders

[00:59:27] because I know some other friends have gone through the process

[00:59:29] and some of them have moved on to other things

[00:59:32] and some haven't

[00:59:33] some have gone back into a corporate job

[00:59:35] or they've just done something else

[00:59:37] but all through that

[00:59:38] it's been this sort of impact

[00:59:40] on your own personal mental health

[00:59:42] and well-being

[00:59:42] and I'm thinking

[00:59:44] even through the whole 18 years

[00:59:46] you have this underlying

[00:59:49] mental health

[00:59:50] and well-being issue anyway

[00:59:52] that you quite often just push the side

[00:59:55] for the sake of the business

[00:59:56] because as a founder

[00:59:57] and as a business owner

[00:59:58] your own personal

[01:00:01] kind of sense of being

[01:00:02] and well-being

[01:00:03] and identity is wrapped up in the business as well

[01:00:05] so it's not like you go to a job

[01:00:08] and you come home

[01:00:08] and then that's it

[01:00:09] you can detach yourself

[01:00:10] the business is you

[01:00:12] and you are the business

[01:00:13] and I've actually been thinking about this

[01:00:16] more for founders

[01:00:16] it's like well

[01:00:19] there must be some way

[01:00:21] to help founders deal with it

[01:00:23] because I know as men

[01:00:25] we're notoriously challenged

[01:00:28] to talk about this

[01:00:30] and founders even worse

[01:00:31] they just don't want to admit that maybe

[01:00:33] yeah, I'm struggling here

[01:00:36] I'm stressed out

[01:00:37] or that failure

[01:00:39] like we had

[01:00:40] and call it what it is

[01:00:42] there were three deals that fell over

[01:00:43] and that sense of regret

[01:00:46] and sense of

[01:00:48] you know

[01:00:48] was either one that really effed it up

[01:00:51] or

[01:00:52] and so you take it on

[01:00:55] and you internalize it

[01:00:56] well it's

[01:00:58] it's your business

[01:01:01] you put so much of yourself into it

[01:01:03] and with Monica

[01:01:05] and you're right

[01:01:06] it's take on

[01:01:08] owners and founders

[01:01:10] there's no easy businesses

[01:01:12] and

[01:01:14] some are more complex than others

[01:01:16] but this

[01:01:17] what you've got to do

[01:01:19] to keep stealing yourself

[01:01:20] to get through is

[01:01:22] is nuts

[01:01:24] and it's really contrasted

[01:01:26] when the head of M&A

[01:01:28] for that big retailer

[01:01:29] five minute call

[01:01:30] now we're not doing it

[01:01:31] they're not attached to anything

[01:01:33] other than their KPIs

[01:01:35] and that's fine

[01:01:36] that's how they operate

[01:01:37] but there's no

[01:01:38] personal like

[01:01:40] for you you'd love to get a great financial outcome

[01:01:42] but you also

[01:01:43] you've got other

[01:01:46] objectives for the business

[01:01:47] because

[01:01:49] you started it with Monica

[01:01:50] because it's doing good work

[01:01:52] because it's

[01:01:53] making good product

[01:01:55] and it's just such a contrast

[01:01:56] between

[01:01:58] the

[01:01:59] and I suppose that's why in the beginning

[01:02:01] you

[01:02:01] you kind of railed against

[01:02:03] the corporate roles

[01:02:04] and did your own thing so

[01:02:06] it's a

[01:02:07] the strain and stress

[01:02:09] is that you think

[01:02:10] you should put up with

[01:02:12] you really

[01:02:12] we've all got a really question

[01:02:15] they are actually worth it

[01:02:17] so voluntary administration

[01:02:21] that's

[01:02:24] that's coming to

[01:02:25] a conclusion

[01:02:27] it is on

[01:02:29] our

[01:02:30] sort of personal side

[01:02:32] so the business

[01:02:34] or at least the assets of the business

[01:02:36] were sold to another

[01:02:38] were acquired by another business

[01:02:40] who have since

[01:02:42] taken over all that

[01:02:43] so we've got no involvement

[01:02:44] with their business whatsoever

[01:02:47] and

[01:02:48] I won't say anything about

[01:02:50] what they're doing

[01:02:51] or how they're trading the brand

[01:02:52] I think that's

[01:02:53] that's for them to decide now

[01:02:54] it's their

[01:02:55] their assets

[01:02:56] they can do what they like

[01:02:59] personal side we've now

[01:03:00] obviously

[01:03:01] there's

[01:03:02] personal guarantees around those debts

[01:03:04] that we've

[01:03:05] incurred as the business

[01:03:06] and we know we still need to work through

[01:03:08] with our bank about

[01:03:11] how we navigate through that

[01:03:12] so

[01:03:13] that's kind of now

[01:03:14] the pointy end of discussions for us personally

[01:03:17] yeah

[01:03:20] so

[01:03:20] let's go to

[01:03:22] what's next for

[01:03:24] James and for Monica

[01:03:25] because that's

[01:03:27] that'll

[01:03:28] take its course

[01:03:30] I can only

[01:03:32] hope that it's

[01:03:34] as good as it can be

[01:03:35] but what's

[01:03:36] what's in the

[01:03:37] in the wings

[01:03:39] for you both

[01:03:41] yeah

[01:03:42] well fortunately Monica has

[01:03:45] secured a role

[01:03:46] with

[01:03:47] with

[01:03:48] Asahi

[01:03:49] Brewing

[01:03:50] as a

[01:03:51] entrepreneur and resident

[01:03:53] so she's working as part of their

[01:03:54] I guess in

[01:03:55] because they're called their internal

[01:03:57] disruption team so

[01:03:58] working on new projects

[01:04:00] new ideas

[01:04:00] new businesses and

[01:04:02] I think she's

[01:04:03] quite energised about it

[01:04:05] she's

[01:04:05] she's enjoying it immensely

[01:04:07] and she's working on something which is

[01:04:08] quite different to food

[01:04:09] within that

[01:04:12] and

[01:04:12] you know I think

[01:04:14] for her

[01:04:15] and also for me

[01:04:16] you know a lot of this

[01:04:17] the stress of actually running this is

[01:04:19] is now gone it's just a different form

[01:04:21] of stress we're experiencing

[01:04:22] different form of anxiety

[01:04:24] and frustration but

[01:04:25] with

[01:04:26] do you think

[01:04:27] do you think with Monica that

[01:04:30] that's a little bit

[01:04:32] in the past because she's

[01:04:34] now got something to pour herself into

[01:04:39] and

[01:04:40] just maybe

[01:04:43] don't have to

[01:04:44] think about

[01:04:46] what is

[01:04:48] and

[01:04:48] yeah absolutely Michael and I think that's

[01:04:51] you know it's kind of like that

[01:04:53] older saying the devil makes her

[01:04:54] hands

[01:04:56] yes she's been able to throw herself

[01:04:58] into something and

[01:04:59] you know move forward for that

[01:05:00] for me

[01:05:03] it's taken a lot longer

[01:05:05] for me because I guess

[01:05:06] my skill set

[01:05:07] I've been applying for roles and talking to people

[01:05:10] and because it's my skill sets marketing

[01:05:12] and branding and quite

[01:05:14] you know narrow in that respect

[01:05:17] you know I think I'm competing with

[01:05:19] people who are 20 years younger than me

[01:05:21] and you know I'm not getting very far in interviews

[01:05:23] but having said that

[01:05:24] I have set up a business or

[01:05:27] consultancy

[01:05:27] for myself that I actually want to try

[01:05:30] and help other founders and other startups

[01:05:33] you know learn from kind of the experiences

[01:05:35] that I've had and both my

[01:05:37] and I've had with the business and

[01:05:40] you know to

[01:05:41] to give them you know a framework

[01:05:43] and you know a pathway to say well

[01:05:46] you know these are things that you should probably

[01:05:48] look out for on your journey particularly

[01:05:50] when you're doing things like talking to investors

[01:05:52] potentially raising capital

[01:05:54] your business model

[01:05:56] you know doesn't necessarily have to be

[01:05:59] within FMCG

[01:06:01] the sector because I think

[01:06:03] universal principles

[01:06:05] you know even

[01:06:06] staff management and team

[01:06:08] employees and culture and engagement

[01:06:10] and you know how to run a

[01:06:12] purpose-based business

[01:06:13] you know how to make your own

[01:06:15] personal values

[01:06:17] part of the business that you want to

[01:06:18] operate and how you bring that to life

[01:06:21] you know I think

[01:06:24] there's

[01:06:25] there's you know as I come back to this point

[01:06:27] it's you know for a founder

[01:06:28] the business is you and you are the business

[01:06:30] and I think you know if

[01:06:32] if you can

[01:06:36] effectively meld

[01:06:36] your personal objectives and your personal goals

[01:06:38] with what you want to achieve

[01:06:40] with what you want to achieve with the business then

[01:06:42] you know it's a win-win for you

[01:06:44] I think sometimes

[01:06:46] founders put aside

[01:06:48] you know their own personal

[01:06:53] aspects to deal with the

[01:06:55] necessities of the business and you know

[01:06:57] the health suffers

[01:06:58] family relationship suffers

[01:07:00] and you know even friendship suffer

[01:07:02] and that's not good for anyone

[01:07:04] no and like

[01:07:06] I feel like with you James

[01:07:08] this is where

[01:07:10] there's got

[01:07:11] Monica's move to that role

[01:07:13] you've got so much

[01:07:15] on the ground

[01:07:17] experience to help

[01:07:21] existing founders and potentially

[01:07:23] prospective founders

[01:07:25] or business owners because

[01:07:27] you've been through an awful lot

[01:07:29] and so you know

[01:07:31] I hope there's some really

[01:07:33] aware organizations that

[01:07:35] you know can put that to good use

[01:07:37] if you were

[01:07:41] talking to

[01:07:43] a founder who's

[01:07:44] year three or year five or something

[01:07:48] what are the top two or three things

[01:07:51] that you talked about

[01:07:53] what are your top two or three things that you would

[01:07:57] say

[01:07:58] could make them

[01:08:00] more successful, more sustainable

[01:08:02] not necessarily more successful I think

[01:08:04] we talk about sustainability which is

[01:08:06] a combination of being able to

[01:08:09] hang in there but also enjoying

[01:08:11] you know some of the fruits of your labor

[01:08:13] well I think one of the

[01:08:15] first thing is for us

[01:08:17] it was

[01:08:19] just this

[01:08:21] necessity or this perception of

[01:08:23] necessity for growth

[01:08:24] and growth for growth's sake and I think

[01:08:27] in

[01:08:29] in some respects yes

[01:08:31] we needed

[01:08:31] growth because of the economics of the business

[01:08:35] required scale economies so

[01:08:37] you know higher production volumes led to

[01:08:39] lowest unit cost so one respect

[01:08:41] that was driving it but in another respect

[01:08:44] it was the worst

[01:08:45] thing we could have done was just to keep trying to grow

[01:08:47] grow grow because

[01:08:49] it adds

[01:08:51] complexity to the business that

[01:08:53] you're not aware of

[01:08:55] it also adds

[01:08:58] pressure on you

[01:08:59] to keep that momentum up

[01:09:02] and also you've got to be really sure

[01:09:05] that your

[01:09:06] the structure of your business

[01:09:09] can sustain

[01:09:11] growth and for me

[01:09:13] there's nothing wrong with staying

[01:09:14] small and nothing wrong

[01:09:17] with growing even organically

[01:09:19] in a sense of just

[01:09:21] you know in response to

[01:09:23] natural market demand

[01:09:25] and I think if you try and

[01:09:28] leap yourself ahead of the

[01:09:30] growth curve or ahead of where market

[01:09:32] demand might be heading

[01:09:34] you get yourself into all sorts of problems

[01:09:37] and

[01:09:38] I think it just

[01:09:39] it builds

[01:09:41] stresses in the business where

[01:09:44] it can quickly crumble around

[01:09:46] you and I think

[01:09:47] you know it's better to be

[01:09:50] smaller stronger

[01:09:51] financially viable and sustainable

[01:09:53] than it is to be

[01:09:55] you know and this is different for

[01:09:58] different sectors and I know tech industry is different

[01:10:00] you know to FMCG

[01:10:01] and other sectors as well where

[01:10:03] you know growth is key

[01:10:04] growth is the ultimate objective

[01:10:07] because VC's want it or your investors

[01:10:09] want it and it's the path to exit

[01:10:11] but you know in our experience

[01:10:13] my experience and particularly in our sector

[01:10:16] is

[01:10:17] there are a lot of forces you pushing you to grow

[01:10:20] one being

[01:10:21] the duopoly the distribution

[01:10:23] that's available to you means you're forced to grow

[01:10:25] in some respects

[01:10:27] but the counterbalances that

[01:10:29] is that it's really hard to grow

[01:10:30] as well in this in the Australian market

[01:10:32] in this sector because

[01:10:35] a lot of forces work against

[01:10:36] you on the other side of that

[01:10:39] and it sounds

[01:10:41] like a

[01:10:43] kind of almost like a

[01:10:45] contradiction in terms

[01:10:47] but you know there's

[01:10:49] incentives to grow but then there's also disincentives

[01:10:51] to grow and I think you've got to find your way through that

[01:10:53] to where you personally as a founder

[01:10:55] are comfortable

[01:10:57] in the direction you want to go

[01:10:58] and I think that's another aspect

[01:11:00] I learned is to be really clear on your own

[01:11:02] personal motivations

[01:11:03] about why you set up this business

[01:11:05] like we set up this business

[01:11:06] and I set up this business because we really want to make a difference

[01:11:09] to kids health

[01:11:11] and over that 18 years

[01:11:13] you know some of those forces I was talking

[01:11:16] about were trying to pull us off track

[01:11:18] and focus on purely

[01:11:19] financial growth or revenue growth

[01:11:21] or industry growth

[01:11:23] or whatever you want to call it or pure business metric growth

[01:11:26] and forgetting about the fact that

[01:11:27] actually we're here to make

[01:11:29] primarily for us an impact

[01:11:31] on these issues that we were so passionate about

[01:11:34] and I think

[01:11:35] for us it would probably would have been better to get

[01:11:39] to grow slowly

[01:11:41] more slowly

[01:11:43] and have more impact

[01:11:45] at the same time knowing that

[01:11:47] you know

[01:11:48] and one thing we did I mean obviously

[01:11:50] you can't predict those Black Swan

[01:11:52] events like COVID and things like that

[01:11:54] but you know if I think

[01:11:56] we were in a stronger position

[01:11:59] structurally within the business

[01:12:00] and also financially we could have weathered that storm

[01:12:02] a lot better

[01:12:03] Yeah, yeah

[01:12:05] the kids

[01:12:07] it is a Black Swan event and it's

[01:12:10] the effects are still being felt

[01:12:12] right through to now

[01:12:14] for a lot of businesses

[01:12:16] in the business but at the owner level as well

[01:12:18] when you how much

[01:12:20] have you got left in the tank

[01:12:22] to keep reinventing

[01:12:24] the business or just surviving

[01:12:27] I

[01:12:28] but that

[01:12:30] big I think that's

[01:12:32] really significant opportunity for every owner

[01:12:35] to really

[01:12:36] think about their business

[01:12:38] as a vehicle for

[01:12:41] doing good work

[01:12:42] but also knowing when

[01:12:44] enough is enough and this

[01:12:46] as you say there's so many pressures

[01:12:48] if you bring in the wrong

[01:12:50] kind of investors

[01:12:52] or

[01:12:54] equity or with expectations

[01:12:56] of growth you know you have to

[01:12:58] you have to tag along because that's what

[01:13:00] you signed up for but turning it

[01:13:02] away is hard or at least

[01:13:04] turning away the wrong kind of investment

[01:13:07] maybe needs some more

[01:13:08] active management

[01:13:10] did you have governance along

[01:13:12] the way in terms of an advisory

[01:13:14] board or trusted advisors

[01:13:17] that you

[01:13:18] were able to chat to about

[01:13:20] business but also about

[01:13:22] the personal stuff which we've talked

[01:13:24] a lot about

[01:13:26] not to the extent that I've now come to realise

[01:13:28] that we should have had

[01:13:31] and

[01:13:33] you know the advisors

[01:13:34] that we did have in place were

[01:13:36] very much focused on the business so

[01:13:39] you know advice around accounting and just

[01:13:41] you know we had other people who were already

[01:13:43] in the industry that

[01:13:44] were ahead of us and

[01:13:47] advised us you know sort of ways to

[01:13:48] deal with for instance say the major

[01:13:50] supermarkets or suppliers or something like

[01:13:53] that

[01:13:54] based on their own experience

[01:13:56] but we didn't have

[01:13:59] anyone

[01:13:59] that

[01:14:02] you could actually go to

[01:14:05] and just say this

[01:14:07] has become just a shit storm or I've

[01:14:09] just had enough I'm just so stressed out

[01:14:10] and I think because we were

[01:14:13] we were a couple

[01:14:14] working the business we tended to lean heavily

[01:14:16] on each other in that respect

[01:14:18] and I think that

[01:14:20] in hindsight it just adds more stress

[01:14:22] to the other partner

[01:14:24] which is not helpful or healthy

[01:14:26] at all

[01:14:28] and I think there is a need

[01:14:30] for

[01:14:32] founders to be able to

[01:14:33] you know to be able to and it doesn't

[01:14:35] necessarily have to be

[01:14:38] something like say a mental health line

[01:14:40] or something like that

[01:14:41] and I think there is a rewetisance about

[01:14:43] using those services but

[01:14:45] you need to have someone in your life who is

[01:14:47] not part of the business

[01:14:48] whether it's a really good trusted friend

[01:14:50] or someone who you can then

[01:14:52] just divulge all this stuff

[01:14:55] on saying you know oh shit you know

[01:14:56] this I just don't know

[01:14:58] if I should shut the door tomorrow

[01:15:01] you know I remember having

[01:15:02] there was a friend of mine who started

[01:15:04] up a business

[01:15:06] just before us when we started the organic food

[01:15:08] business and I remember very

[01:15:10] clearly he was

[01:15:12] under a lot of stress towards

[01:15:14] the end and

[01:15:16] I remember one conversation he said

[01:15:18] look I just feel like jumping off

[01:15:21] and it's like whoa this

[01:15:22] is serious stuff

[01:15:25] and I bet you are not the only one going

[01:15:27] through this because I mean I haven't

[01:15:28] felt it to that regard but I've

[01:15:30] certainly felt the weight of

[01:15:32] it just like oh god this is

[01:15:34] just crushing you know and there's

[01:15:36] a field trapped in this thing or is there

[01:15:38] a way out should we just close it now

[01:15:40] and move on to something else

[01:15:42] and you do feel like

[01:15:44] an imposter you know the imposter syndrome

[01:15:46] is very real you feel like

[01:15:49] no you're not capable of getting through this

[01:15:51] or you're not skilled enough

[01:15:52] or you're not knowledgeable enough

[01:15:54] or you're not worthy enough

[01:15:56] or that you yeah

[01:15:58] which can

[01:16:01] morph into

[01:16:03] therefore it's me

[01:16:04] I'm going to have to find a way

[01:16:05] and it just kind of uplifts

[01:16:08] the pressure

[01:16:09] you know I see this as

[01:16:11] you know your

[01:16:14] incredibly rich

[01:16:15] experience over the time

[01:16:17] is being able

[01:16:19] to help other

[01:16:21] owners and founders who

[01:16:22] I really have a strong belief that

[01:16:25] there's a lot of great technical

[01:16:27] advisors

[01:16:29] expert advisors

[01:16:31] but the ones that

[01:16:33] can straddle

[01:16:36] understanding

[01:16:37] what you're going through

[01:16:39] but also understand you

[01:16:41] as an individual and say

[01:16:43] hey James or Michael

[01:16:46] it's not worth it

[01:16:47] or do you really think

[01:16:49] that is what you're after

[01:16:51] do you think there's another way because I care about

[01:16:53] you individually

[01:16:55] as well as

[01:16:56] and your business or whatever is

[01:16:59] it's

[01:17:00] not everything

[01:17:03] and it can

[01:17:04] default to being everything so yeah we're getting

[01:17:06] pretty heavy

[01:17:08] territory but

[01:17:09] it certainly

[01:17:11] I think one of the aspirations I have

[01:17:14] for the podcast is that

[01:17:16] owners will

[01:17:17] get a lot from hearing it from other owners

[01:17:20] or other founders so that's

[01:17:23] why I'm so appreciative of you coming on

[01:17:25] and being so open about

[01:17:26] what you've been through

[01:17:28] and that I think

[01:17:32] finding some

[01:17:33] outlets and some other

[01:17:35] people outside the business I mean it's hard enough

[01:17:37] it's hard enough

[01:17:39] being in business and going home to a

[01:17:41] and I have these discussions a lot

[01:17:43] more often with

[01:17:45] with males because

[01:17:47] a lot of business owners

[01:17:49] are males and there's this

[01:17:53] break

[01:17:54] inability to

[01:17:55] discuss what's going on

[01:17:57] sometimes in incapacity because

[01:17:59] I don't want to share it

[01:18:01] with anybody else but

[01:18:02] there's also not sure who to talk to

[01:18:05] and I can't talk to senior staff

[01:18:07] and can't go home

[01:18:09] necessarily and talk about it

[01:18:11] because it's just

[01:18:12] and then you're in business

[01:18:15] with your wife so

[01:18:16] yeah tricky stuff

[01:18:19] yeah yeah

[01:18:20] from the business perspective

[01:18:23] maybe I don't know you

[01:18:24] might have been the best thing

[01:18:26] for you

[01:18:29] in

[01:18:29] in hindsight Michael I'm also

[01:18:32] really grateful and optimistic about

[01:18:35] what's ahead

[01:18:37] that 18 years

[01:18:38] we did but Monika and I did amazing things

[01:18:41] and we're so proud of

[01:18:43] all those achievements and yes we didn't get

[01:18:45] the exit or the deals didn't get through

[01:18:47] I mean there's a lot of things that we did

[01:18:49] wrong and we'll happily own

[01:18:51] them and learn from them but

[01:18:53] at the same time you know we

[01:18:55] broke through

[01:18:56] a market category that

[01:18:59] really didn't exist at the time and

[01:19:00] led the way in really opening it up

[01:19:02] for the other brands to follow

[01:19:04] and I think it really is a way

[01:19:06] in how you can

[01:19:09] meld purpose

[01:19:10] and impact into a business and thrive

[01:19:13] you know it's not about

[01:19:14] always about profit it's

[01:19:17] yes you need profit to keep going but

[01:19:18] you can make an impact at the same time

[01:19:20] and a positive impact in a way that

[01:19:22] is valued by the community

[01:19:24] and your customers and makes

[01:19:26] sense to your personal values and

[01:19:28] for 18 years we were doing that almost

[01:19:30] every day so I'm

[01:19:32] honestly proud of all that

[01:19:34] that we achieved yeah

[01:19:37] look that's

[01:19:39] absolutely should be and

[01:19:40] I think that's the

[01:19:42] the next stage

[01:19:45] and I

[01:19:46] like to think that as I said earlier

[01:19:48] some

[01:19:50] organizations that could really tap

[01:19:52] into that because

[01:19:54] you bring both

[01:19:57] corporate experience

[01:19:58] but also 18 years in the

[01:20:00] trenches of running a business so

[01:20:02] James look I think that's probably

[01:20:04] a pretty good

[01:20:05] note to finish on

[01:20:08] I really do appreciate

[01:20:10] you taking time to

[01:20:11] come in and have a chat

[01:20:13] on Small Business Banta and

[01:20:15] I wish you

[01:20:17] all the best

[01:20:19] thank you Michael, thank you

[01:20:20] and Monica as well

[01:20:23] and the note we're

[01:20:25] finishing on is that you did achieve

[01:20:28] an incredible amount

[01:20:29] as a business for purpose

[01:20:32] and great

[01:20:34] for consumers so well done

[01:20:36] to you both

[01:20:37] thank you

[01:20:38] if someone wants to reach out

[01:20:41] James what's the easiest way for them

[01:20:43] to contact you

[01:20:46] probably just my email

[01:20:47] I think or just look up

[01:20:48] LinkedIn my email is James Meldrum

[01:20:51] one two at gmail.com

[01:20:53] or you can just find me on LinkedIn

[01:20:56] but yeah if anyone

[01:20:57] loved to I'd love to connect

[01:20:59] with people and take this further

[01:21:00] and Michael thanks again for all your time

[01:21:02] and having me on it's been an absolute pleasure

[01:21:04] they'll enjoy it

[01:21:06] well I had to and

[01:21:08] I have noted you know you've been posting

[01:21:10] some really

[01:21:12] interesting stuff

[01:21:13] on LinkedIn

[01:21:14] of late and so

[01:21:18] let's hope

[01:21:20] keep in contact about what's next

[01:21:22] for you personally

[01:21:23] thanks again James

[01:21:25] enjoy your day

[01:21:27] well I hope you enjoyed that episode of Small Business Banta

[01:21:36] and I hope it was helpful

[01:21:37] in you getting the most out of your Small Business Ownership

[01:21:40] to subscribe or listen back

[01:21:43] or to check out any of the resources

[01:21:45] or information we talked about today

[01:21:47] head over to the website

[01:21:49] smallbusinessbanta.com.au

[01:21:51] or if you want

[01:21:52] search up Small Business Banta on your favourite podcast player

[01:21:55] don't forget to subscribe

[01:21:57] and if it was really helpful

[01:21:59] I'd love it if you told another business owner

[01:22:02] about the podcast

[01:22:03] if you thought it was exceptionally helpful

[01:22:06] and how about you leave me a 5 star rating

[01:22:08] if you think I can help personally

[01:22:10] please reach out to me

[01:22:12] Michael Kerr via the website

[01:22:14] there's a new episode out every couple of weeks

[01:22:16] we'll catch up then