Earl Eddings business founder, chair, mentor and adviser shares his experiences from both sides of a business sale

[00:00:00] Hi, it's Michael Kerr here presenting Small Business Banter Welcome to the Small Business

[00:00:13] Banter Podcast. I'm Michael Kerr your host and I'm also the founder of Kerr Capital where

[00:00:18] I work day-to-day with business owners. The Small Business Banter podcast is built just

[00:00:24] for business owners and will be especially relevant if you're an owner looking to sell,

[00:00:29] if you've been unexpectedly approached by a potential buyer or if you're an aspiring

[00:00:34] owner about to buy a new business. There's a lot on the line personally and

[00:00:39] financially, it's stressful, it's emotional and it's usually new territory. So to help,

[00:00:46] each episode of Small Business Banter is a discussion between me and another business

[00:00:51] owner or an experienced Small Business Advisor. We talk about their experiences.

[00:00:59] So what you'll get is practical real-life advice, different takes on everyday problems

[00:01:05] and a renewed confidence to tackle your own business challenges.

[00:01:23] Welcome in to edition number 138 as a Small Business Banter Podcast. El Eddings joins

[00:01:30] me today on the podcast, a big welcome El. Good morning Michael, good to catch up again.

[00:01:35] It's great. I wanted to continue with the theme of Small Business Banter talk about your

[00:01:40] extensive personal experience with exits of businesses of varying sizes and as you just

[00:01:47] said, you've been on both sides of the equation. So could you just start with a little

[00:01:53] bit about the portfolio of El Eddings, businesses and professional interests and including

[00:02:00] what you're doing right now? Okay. Thank you for being in, it's always a good opportunity

[00:02:03] to talk to other small business owners. I've been there and done that so I know some

[00:02:07] of the pitfalls and the joys it brings. I'm a first business I set up from the third

[00:02:11] bedroom at home while my wife was six months pregnant with her first child so it was

[00:02:15] interesting times in our life but I just saw an opportunity in the market to in a consulting

[00:02:19] capacity around health and safety and risk management. It's sort of a lot of big corporates

[00:02:23] weren't doing it that well. Lucky enough we had a great client in Telstrom and we built

[00:02:27] off the back of that, did that for four or five years and then we made the BRW top 25

[00:02:34] startups and top 100 companies in 2005 which put us on the radar a little bit. That was

[00:02:40] called our consulting group, built up to about 10-15 people, niched in when you're particularly

[00:02:47] in professional services is a bit of a ratio. Most people don't get past the one person

[00:02:52] that's fine or then you've got to jump to four people and then you sort of get to four

[00:02:56] to 15 and then you've got to jump from 15 to 40 and 40 to 100 so it's a bit of a scary

[00:03:01] jump. Not necessarily getting any more out of there but taking a lot more risk. So I was

[00:03:06] around that 10-12 mark which was really good, loved it with a great team, great culture

[00:03:12] but then I saw to grow the business I'm going to have to take on a lot more personal risk

[00:03:15] which I wasn't really prepared to do and then an offer come through we had a number

[00:03:18] of offers to bias, some genuine, some not so genuine. These were just came to you these

[00:03:26] offers you were doing such a good job in your marketplace that they came which often

[00:03:30] happens. Yeah we had a couple of competitors want to take us out and our client with a great

[00:03:34] client list and as that states it must be I was getting a little bit bored, I'll do something

[00:03:40] bit different. So we had a great offer from a company called WSP or a global company

[00:03:44] at a list on the London Stock Exchange so we're buying up a number of companies in Australia.

[00:03:49] They made me a great offer, in fact an offer to good to refuse eight times earnings cash

[00:03:53] upfront with no earn out or very little earn out so I thought that's a great opportunity

[00:03:58] at a young family, wanted to build a house so it was a really good opportunity to set

[00:04:02] ourselves up for life and then have a great job. He put me into a role where I was running

[00:04:08] five countries, setting a global board out of London so a great learning experience

[00:04:12] you know I'm mid 30s to be able to do that. Was that your first own business?

[00:04:16] Yeah, yeah a small minority partner with me we got a great deal as a separate professional

[00:04:22] service is firm to get that type of valuation it made sense to do it and I think in

[00:04:28] any time you've got a business you've got to be a little bit not emotive about the deal

[00:04:33] next to that. I've found one of the biggest challenges is it often becomes a person's purpose

[00:04:38] is life which is fine. Yeah I want to talk a lot of yeah but when you go to sell you've

[00:04:42] got to be very un-emotive and that can be very challenging for a lot of people that can't

[00:04:45] let go so I had made the conscious decision if it was going to sell I was going to go full throttle

[00:04:51] on the other side of the deal because I wanted to do other things so a lot of people can't let go

[00:04:57] and anyway so it was a great learning experience got to run 10 other companies that bring them all

[00:05:01] together and after three and a half years I'd three kids under three and a half can we

[00:05:06] spend eight months a year overseas and I got approached to do another role with a

[00:05:10] listed company called GrandCap and they did a roll up pre GFC of 10 companies did no due diligence

[00:05:17] and GFC hit no paper money. A paper money in lot of debt so I got bought into sort of fix that up

[00:05:23] and sell off assets buy new assets and then change the whole dynamic so did that for five years

[00:05:29] and you know that was a really hard running a listed company 38 you know in a turnaround situation

[00:05:34] we got there I was keen to capitalize the business and take it global but the board said

[00:05:39] I know you've done a great job fixing in our now we sell it so when we got bought out by

[00:05:44] West farmers the division of what was called West Farmers and Duttule Safety Products

[00:05:50] doubled the share price I thought we'd have another year or so we could have done a lot better

[00:05:55] but there was a board's decision and yeah sold into West Farmers. So how many years on from the

[00:06:01] first one was that? That was probably about 10 years. Oh okay yeah but it's still two significant

[00:06:08] exits and from there what was the... That's time tools have evolved in cricket administration so

[00:06:16] it's taking up a lot more of baton so I'll travel around with cricket and fortunate I've become

[00:06:21] chairman of cricket Australia which was another great experience many people around the world

[00:06:24] and being you know something you're deeply passionate about to have an influence especially post-samp

[00:06:28] papergate when I was boarding to help fix that up very challenging but very rewarding as well

[00:06:35] I think 13 years on the border cricket Australia which is some of the best times of my life

[00:06:40] but in media which I've also you know coincided with probably the probably the last moment

[00:06:47] in Australian cricket. Yeah so that was working through that and the challenges that you know

[00:06:51] it made you realise how much cricket is in the tapestry Australian society and when you let

[00:06:58] the Australian public down it was really challenging but yeah to the credit of always the boys bounce

[00:07:02] back and change their behaviour and I think they've got a great team now I think they're great

[00:07:06] ambassadors for the sport the women's team are fantastic so very very lucky. At the same time then

[00:07:12] I was on a board of another ISEC listed company as non-executive director another fixed rougher

[00:07:17] I'll only get in false and fixed rougher but there was a company called MSL they did sports

[00:07:21] technology so they gobbling they do all the tap and go, pods systems for stadiums around the world

[00:07:26] and the like. I must admit that was a major deal and just again I may not have gone on that board

[00:07:30] once I got in there it wasn't doing very well, you know settled with a lot of debt losing money share

[00:07:37] price I think got down about two cents a share and the institutional investors weren't happy and

[00:07:44] they want to blood so I got boarded in I was there when that happened they bought a new board

[00:07:49] and it was a turnaround we did fantastic value and through COVID we did really well. It's a really

[00:07:53] smart acquisitions which turned the fortunes around for us and we saw that 12 months ago today actually

[00:07:59] to private equity in the soul for 30 cents a share so it was a great turnaround for the shareholders

[00:08:03] a great story you know 15 hundred percent return on investment or turnaround so 15 banger love them

[00:08:10] and I'm still involved in the background with the private equity firm as an advisor for them.

[00:08:14] Right there's some meaty roles you've had but it does go on so you're still involved

[00:08:22] your key role at the minute is as Cindy get chair for one of the CEO's. Yeah one of my side drops

[00:08:31] so I've got a still-go-monger and sold-in car just recently sold-out a little bit to big insurance

[00:08:37] broker called steadfast so I'm still there in a capacity of CEO of the consulting arm but on the

[00:08:42] side I'm at Cindy get chair of the CEO Institute of Culture Mentor CEO it's sort of 30 to 300

[00:08:48] million dollars turnover businesses which I love it's a it's a passion of mind you know it's very

[00:08:53] lonely being a CEO and only a CEO would know that so yeah it's a great opportunity to give back

[00:08:58] but also help other aspiring CEOs. And you've got some interest in in racing thoroughbreds

[00:09:06] that's that's a personal passion. Yeah you still sort of got out of that now. From the

[00:09:10] wife and I bred horse horses for about 15 years loved it for things studio when you're three kids

[00:09:16] are private school and it builds to pay they were starting to go put on the backburn of we had

[00:09:20] some great fun and some reasonable success with it. Well there's a lot there's a lot in that but

[00:09:25] you know being on both sides of the transaction which you you were is a really interesting

[00:09:32] place to start so can I go go back to that your first exit was it always a plan did you have

[00:09:41] just start the business with an exit in mind I mean there's a lot of chat a lot of promotion of

[00:09:47] the idea that you should or you know you should be building till exit from day one but was that

[00:09:52] was that the case with you always a bit more passion I just saw an opportunity in the marketplace

[00:09:58] I was working for a firm I didn't really well I thought he was didn't align with theirs

[00:10:02] don't do my own thing it's always been entrepreneurial is one of my own business

[00:10:06] but always in the back of your mind you're there to sell your business at some stage

[00:10:09] you can be a you can do it as a job so you're buying yourself a job nothing wrong with that at all

[00:10:15] and I'm so a lot of people do very very well out of that but at some stage I wanted to grow it

[00:10:20] and you know have an event a life-changing event so I think it's very important when you start

[00:10:24] a bit your business is always for sale whether you know what or not someone you know if you

[00:10:29] and if someone comes off you know it's very hard to knock back so I think when people

[00:10:34] are running their own business when they get through what I call the honeymoon phase excitement the

[00:10:38] fear of running your business when you get into what I call the growth phase of your business you

[00:10:42] sure always have a the back of your mind that some stages could be the life-changing event

[00:10:47] I need to be ready for it and make sure I do it properly I say a lot of small business don't

[00:10:52] they don't plan for that so when someone comes and off from they very flattered but what they

[00:10:57] don't realise they could be doing a lot better if they had planned properly for it yeah yeah and

[00:11:01] and it's between running your business and choosing consciously to cap it almost I only want

[00:11:10] to be small however you measure that which you said is fine I agree totally there's a lot of

[00:11:17] very successful people out there that kind of know their boundaries and know the limits and

[00:11:21] that's a good thing it's and then there are others who are you know headstrong about getting an

[00:11:27] event an exit event but in the middle there's a lot of businesses that and owners that and all

[00:11:33] these businesses are driven by owners well they're in between and that's where you know you've got

[00:11:39] you've got roles as not exactly director and chair and you know guiding those people along because

[00:11:46] it's um you got to you know you can get really busy running the business and you can feel like

[00:11:50] you haven't fun or you can feel super stressed yeah but you need a plan of some sort whether it's

[00:11:56] to hold it and just be happy with what you got or or excellent and both of fine strategies and I've

[00:12:02] seen a lot of great people do really really well having a small little business four or five people

[00:12:07] stick to their knitting yeah they're very passionate very technically probably a subject matter

[00:12:11] expert in something and they can be really good lifestyle for themselves and you know you go

[00:12:15] for any kind of any business and we've seen that through COVID um things come out you don't

[00:12:19] know what to do but when you get when you're comfortable what you're doing you know good underlying

[00:12:23] business you don't have to sell you can have that that that lifestyle and you get some really good

[00:12:28] things with that but if you do want to grow you got to be under when you do sell you only want

[00:12:33] crack at it and I see a lot of organisations fail or not maximise the value because one they've

[00:12:39] got either right mindset or the right structures in place to maximise the value so what what are

[00:12:44] some of the things you think are really important there if you're um you're giving advice to one

[00:12:50] of your clients you syndicate members uh the CEO what are one of the really important things

[00:12:57] to make it easier to sell yeah I think you've got to give yourself a good good runway at least

[00:13:02] a couple years because you think if someone's going to buy they're going to look at your last two

[00:13:05] years figures so if you've got business got what I call a lot of toys we got you know cars and

[00:13:10] properties and you know you're taking a lot of cash out now a lot of fun that's fine but go

[00:13:14] to understand that's going to be benefited to your value so you've got to be able to clean up

[00:13:19] your balance sheet get a good so show you're growing and you're growing strongly and you've got

[00:13:24] good client base so sometimes that takes a good two years to work out through the system to clean

[00:13:29] up your balance sheet because remember if you're buying it's selling your business and say eight times

[00:13:33] earnings all every dollar you say that's you're going to get an eight time investment and I think

[00:13:37] a lot of people realise that so taking all cash out of the business but your times that by eight or

[00:13:42] five or ten or whatever it might be that's the impact it's having on your business yeah pay

[00:13:45] a little bit of tax before then yeah but then you get eight yeah that's why yeah the I think the

[00:13:51] appetite particularly when big companies are buying smaller companies the appetite so go through

[00:13:57] and say I look I've got to add back this yeah it just makes it just smells a little bit more doesn't

[00:14:03] yeah yeah it makes you a messier transaction yeah and it always leaves a bit of a bad taste in everyone's

[00:14:08] mouth so I think the cleaner your balance sheet and your business can be for two years prior to

[00:14:11] your sale process is really really important and that you've got to be disciplined to do that

[00:14:16] and have a very clear plan about how you're going to do that because when they when they open up

[00:14:20] the book so when I've seen you know everything's clean and you don't have to sell assets and get

[00:14:24] rid of leases and things and when you're on the buy side anything it goes to value you're going

[00:14:30] to try new so you want to make sure that you don't give them an opportunity to to claw back the value

[00:14:35] of your business and that's in do you do that's what they'll do oh yeah yeah claw back the headline

[00:14:41] number yeah which is which is a big trap isn't it you get someone gets an approach and there's

[00:14:48] a number floated and it looks pretty exciting and and that the next six nine 12 months are about

[00:14:57] validating that we should pay that but really in a lot of cases it's about just chipping away at the

[00:15:03] price or yeah and you know and this way if you ever have management accounts or financial

[00:15:10] reporting that's not up to scratch and and you've taken your foot off the accelerator a bit because

[00:15:15] you think it's all going to get done yeah it's when you get it trouble yeah I think it's a lot of

[00:15:19] big traps there firstly why not it's a big distraction and people do take their off the ball because

[00:15:23] they're so focused on the deal and generally you've got limited resources where the buyer's got a

[00:15:28] lot of resources and they're going to ask a deeper question that takes you away from running the

[00:15:32] business and then you do when I get done so that's a big trap for people I think the other one is

[00:15:37] if you haven't got your systems up to place pick up your small business buying you and that's

[00:15:41] a big risk for a bigger company so the more you can show you got systems in place long-term contracts

[00:15:47] long-term supplier agreements etc it's going to get out of your value but if you've got no systems

[00:15:52] in place or little the business has totally relied on you you're a key key person risk

[00:15:56] then the value decreases both in terms of the quantum they pay but also the number time

[00:16:03] earnings I'll pay so having those systems in place showing you're a proper business not a one man

[00:16:07] banned or heavy rely on the owner is really critical yeah that's that's why you know there's

[00:16:13] this two two or three year run way so important isn't because if you draw a line in the sand today

[00:16:19] and you make a decision that you would like to set sail for an exit then you do have time to

[00:16:26] to look at those things you may if you've got if you've got three months there's only so much

[00:16:33] you can do what I see a lot of in the last 12 18 20 months and it goes back to your first business

[00:16:43] you got approached out of the blue but I think that's happening more and more and this idea that

[00:16:51] you have a planned exit is a good thing if that's what you want to do you have a plan and

[00:16:56] you work towards that plan but also factor in that if you've got a growing successful business

[00:17:02] the probability of a call from someone saying we like what you're doing or we're a bit concerned

[00:17:08] that you're going so well or better that happens all the time we had in the last episode I had

[00:17:14] Pete Seligman from Sydney who's a professional search investor he's he's invested in tens and

[00:17:21] tens of businesses and that is something that if you if you wanted to exit plan you've got to

[00:17:29] you've got a factor in that that unknown because successful businesses will be on the radar

[00:17:35] of bigger businesses in your industry yeah and I myself we when we're looking at doing roll-ups

[00:17:40] you're you scan the market and you'll know who's out there and you might have 20 30 on your list

[00:17:46] and you'll work through your list and then you know so you may not know if you're always somewhere

[00:17:49] generally you're doing a good job yeah yeah and you've got to be ready for that it's a sales pipeline

[00:17:54] of merger and acquisition opportunities how did you how did you handle that that first call

[00:18:03] you got the first time for one of your own businesses would you would you approach it differently now

[00:18:09] the WSP deal wasn't our first off we had three or four and that learned taught me a lot okay one

[00:18:15] was about how much distraction it could be and how disappointed you could be when people caught you

[00:18:21] and then they come back with a number and go I might just waste you just wasting my time

[00:18:25] so okay that came you listen well even going to do it we'll do it properly but do it on our terms

[00:18:29] so we knock back a lot no not talking we want to focus on doing this but when they these people

[00:18:34] introduce me by a third party or you're really well and their value or their strategy really

[00:18:39] excited me and I thought I can go work there and I was only young so when you're young you say well

[00:18:43] like what's the next five years look like after I sell it and like any of pay rise or when you get

[00:18:49] a big check the value of that only last six weeks exciting to that last six weeks then you're

[00:18:53] back into the reality of life yeah so it can't be more it can't be more about just the money it's

[00:18:58] got to be about purpose yeah now if it's fine if you're older and you're retiring and it's your

[00:19:02] exit event and you're super anyways and great you'd ride off into the sunset but when you're young

[00:19:06] and you get a lot more to do you gotta be okay it's very you've got to be able to go somewhere it's

[00:19:10] going to keep you interested where you can grow as a person and have opportunities otherwise why

[00:19:15] would you do it so I think where you go is just important as why you want to go there yeah so that

[00:19:21] that probably means that in those discussions with that acquired it's got to be a two way thing doesn't

[00:19:27] so you've really aside from the number particularly the early UR in your career or ownership

[00:19:34] the more important is for you to kind of treat it like if it doesn't happen it's not the end of

[00:19:40] the world there'll be somebody yeah you can keep growing your business but you said get excited

[00:19:45] and I think that's really um you gotta they've got to open up the communal on their side as well

[00:19:50] right so you can say well yeah I could see myself in this organization or it is too hierarchical

[00:19:56] or too whatever and it's just not going to suit so even if the number was attractive yeah you may

[00:20:02] decide to pass yeah exactly right I think most people jumping into it we were actually thinking

[00:20:07] of the strategic rationale I know when we sold green cap to West farmers I just didn't agree with

[00:20:13] this strategic rationale why they're buying because it didn't make sense to me and when we say

[00:20:17] you were suspicious almost yeah very it made sense oh good for the shareholders I wanted an event

[00:20:23] but as a CEO I'm doing running you biz I saw the value we could still keep creating

[00:20:27] and while I was going obviously the board said we're selling it well went into it you know 100%

[00:20:30] committed to doing that I can never understand this strategic intent from effectively a retail

[00:20:36] or a wholesaler of products buying professional services for never made sense to me

[00:20:41] and I played out on the other side of the deal which is it was just a total disconnect about what

[00:20:45] we did and what value we could offer them and so and then I said well yeah I left after I read

[00:20:51] it because it just wasn't what I wanted and I could see the business was being eroded by just a

[00:20:56] disconnect between value proposition between strategic intent and risk appetite so maybe

[00:21:01] realisation go do something else yeah I left on good terms and still better just wasn't for me

[00:21:06] I could see the business was going to change but not I didn't think for the better yeah I mean that

[00:21:10] that's um there are owners that have that legacy element that top of the tree and

[00:21:18] and it's it I encourage those two way conversations if there is some interest from a buyer as to what

[00:21:24] what what will they do with the business because some people really do deeply care about it and could

[00:21:30] be reflected in caring about the staff or the the you know the suppliers or whatever but they care

[00:21:36] about it deeply so you've got you've just got a you can't be afraid to ask searching questions

[00:21:42] of the other side yeah you're doing your DD on them as much as they're doing it on you

[00:21:46] um and the numbers of the numbers the numbers are the easiest side of any deal the numbers

[00:21:50] will work out one way or the other the work and I won't work out you get a value it's about the

[00:21:54] people and I'm in with speaking some of the all the lot of accusations for Amazon he goes the first

[00:21:58] 10 meetings we have is about the people the numbers the last thing we look at so one if I'm on the

[00:22:03] buy so I can those people deliver are they fit for our culture how they fit for what we want to do

[00:22:08] other got the capability so that's where there's a lot of the where you should spend most your time

[00:22:13] in any deal right the numbers of the the easiest part of any deal you've been in a lot of people

[00:22:18] you know consulting businesses yeah if you're going to stay with the organization you do probably

[00:22:24] have to fundamentally agree with what the general direction is but also you don't want to go

[00:22:30] go to work and and and hate it yeah and I'll say that a lot and I always challenge people when

[00:22:35] they're buying their business it's great to get a big check and that's fun it's great and it's

[00:22:40] validation or your hard work but you've also good to give up something you want to be prepared to

[00:22:44] give up some freedom give that and be you know be part of a bigger machine we're not in control

[00:22:49] if you can't do that don't sell because you're going to be miserable yes you might have a lot of

[00:22:52] money be going to be miserable conversely on the buy side up there the first questions I ask

[00:22:56] of them buying people related business about why do you want to sell why do you want to come to us

[00:23:01] what would you want to do because when you run your own business you put so much discretionary effort

[00:23:06] into it and a fine of you buy the wrong people business then you lose that discretionary effort

[00:23:11] to become what I call nine to five is and you've lost all the value though they've created for you

[00:23:15] and then people leave and they get disenchanted and it falls apart that's why 80% of most deals fail

[00:23:20] because of that I can say I don't think the cultural aspects and on the other side of the deal

[00:23:25] what do we do well yeah there's this um I think the the bigger up the value scale you go the more

[00:23:31] there is this financial and it's like the financials are how it's measured and particularly in

[00:23:36] the listed company environment but it can almost you know be that first and then I'll then you

[00:23:43] know can we marry these two organizations together and you're so far down the track at

[00:23:49] sometimes it's too too late to do anything about it but it really you think starting with

[00:23:55] can we marry these two organizations and the people yeah I've got a great example when

[00:24:00] you're a few years ago now when con con bank called colonial first date colonial first I was

[00:24:04] ripping business and like a lot of money the first in con bank even though both are all you've got to

[00:24:07] be like us it's all the value that colonial you know built because they're great culture and

[00:24:12] great process it was just eroded straight away because they made them fit into their model which

[00:24:16] the reason they bought them because they were more entrepreneur doing great things and destroy

[00:24:21] their culture overnight so that's where to be careful when you're selling to be a company you don't get

[00:24:25] caught up in there speaking more for some asses and destroy the value you've created yeah

[00:24:32] hi there it's just a quick interruption to the podcast and it's a message from Kerr Capital

[00:24:37] a supporter of the podcast if you're a business owner thinking about selling and you're unsure

[00:24:43] about what you should do well the worst thing you can do is jump straight into an unprepared

[00:24:48] business sale cross your fingers and hope for the best if you want to take control get a sense

[00:24:54] of what your business is really worth and a plan to make it more sellable then head over onto

[00:24:59] the Kerr Capital website check out the value and sellability diagnostic if it picks your interest

[00:25:06] contact me Michael Kerr or book one of the free 45 minute diagnostic calls now let's head back to

[00:25:13] the podcast I just want to go back to that question when you're on the buy side of you know why are

[00:25:23] you selling in business it's such a vital question and the answer back is is pretty formative

[00:25:29] in the way you go about assessing something isn't it yeah so my my experiences either I want an

[00:25:36] event to happen because I'm one of a tire but I want to look after my people or I see that we can't

[00:25:43] go the next level we need help because we're capital constrained and I'll you know I think between

[00:25:48] us working with you we can create something we I couldn't do by myself which is very legitimate

[00:25:53] because you get to a state where I can't fund this so I need a bigger brother or a big assist to

[00:25:57] come and help me do that which is the legitimate form or you get excited because someone's off

[00:26:01] me a lot of money which to me is probably the wrong answer because they've been thought through all

[00:26:05] the other things around you know what do I do post deal and how do I you know it has my life

[00:26:09] going to change and so well dramatically yeah and if the buyer is saying oh no classic one

[00:26:16] move on the sell side if nothing changes that's bullshit sorry yeah that's it's a bigger

[00:26:22] slide that's okay because it does change and it needs to change so you can't expect people to

[00:26:26] give you money a lot of money and then not to have things changed on your life so you've got to

[00:26:31] be prepared for that and before we both mentally and physically be prepared you are going to lose control

[00:26:37] and so a lot of getting your mindset right as an owner that yes I've got a responsibility too

[00:26:42] if people are going to give me money I've got a responsibility to make sure this thing works

[00:26:46] I'll see a lot of owners as soon as they catch the check they're out the door already which is to be

[00:26:50] not very ethical yeah well and it's also it on their behalf possibly but also on the buyer

[00:26:56] buyers half and pressed hard enough about what they really want to do and they haven't

[00:27:01] maybe there's been some misunderstandings but in the end if you're going to marry those two

[00:27:07] organisations you've got to have those conversations early about how we're going to work together

[00:27:14] exactly um I you know which which takes a lot of this is where a lot of these discussions go

[00:27:21] high why because a lot of trust is needed to open up about yeah I do want to sell because or I do

[00:27:29] want to grow but I don't have the resources that you don't have that conversation every day with

[00:27:33] anybody that knocks on the door do you know you've got it so that they're coming together and having

[00:27:39] an open conversation about where this business could go and why it could benefit both sides

[00:27:45] needs a lot of trust and maybe you know some relationship building prior to that very much so

[00:27:50] particularly if they're a competitor you don't give them way too much uh and secondly it does it takes

[00:27:56] it's and when you do it in the in the discussion it's like any relationship you've got to feel comfortable

[00:28:01] and trustworthy enough to open up you might have some fears and challenges I don't know what to do anymore

[00:28:05] it's very hard to tell someone about to give you a big check so being having that trust

[00:28:09] relationship and and also making sure who's doing the deal is who will actually going to be working

[00:28:15] with on the other side and from a by side I've always been very clear the people doing the DD aren't

[00:28:21] the ones they're going to be working with on the other side of the deal for a couple of reasons one

[00:28:25] is in any DD you can get quite heated and quite challenging and you would have been through a lot of

[00:28:30] that Michael and he can get why am I doing this and so you want you want to a circuit breaker

[00:28:35] because you're going to work for these people on the other side so I always separate the deal team

[00:28:40] from the management team yes you need to have every relationship with those people but they don't do

[00:28:43] the DD um that also then solves the issue of the people getting what are called deal hungry

[00:28:48] where they get put so much emotional time and effort and money into what they've got to get the

[00:28:51] deal done even though it may not be the right thing to do so having on a by side having a DD team

[00:28:57] very separate to the the people are going to be working with on the other side of the deal they

[00:29:00] build the relationship but the people doing the DD are very separate team and they're very focused

[00:29:05] on that and yeah um big also got to you got to educate the other side that's yeah they ask the

[00:29:09] hard questions that's their job to do that and equally you should have your own people doing that

[00:29:13] of us um the other thing too I think it's lots of all business try and skimp on the money when

[00:29:19] they're doing DD um pay the money if you get you know no disrespect to your local account or whatever

[00:29:26] because they haven't had proper m and a experience dealing with big big affirmed their legal teams

[00:29:32] you're going to get screwed over on your value yeah so you need spend the money remember if you get

[00:29:36] an eight nine times every dollar you save or he's gonna go increase so you need to make sure you

[00:29:41] spend the money invest rise and get the best possible advice you can afford yeah yeah and

[00:29:47] the expert advice who do that stuff all the time and as you said there are really good

[00:29:53] advisors around across the law and and accounting and all sorts of fields but you know they

[00:30:00] went in the pinch of doing a deal you need someone who's yeah custom yeah he's on your side and

[00:30:05] you know most of them aren't having got the experience to go shout hard call sail agreements

[00:30:10] no so you want someone on your side who can go in there and be your bulldog protect your interest

[00:30:15] but also know the big picture is yes we want to get a deal done yeah and we want to get the best

[00:30:19] possible deal but we also got to work with these people on the other side yeah you're there

[00:30:23] representing my I don't have to be in the room that's where you get emotion yeah and when you get

[00:30:26] emotion you know necessarily get a bit out there yeah it's right and those you know those the

[00:30:31] challenges with those longstanding advisors can be they care they you've got a personal friendship

[00:30:35] with them and they only want the best so but you need someone as you say that to ask the hard

[00:30:41] questions and and then to be able to also relate that to what you need to be clear with them what

[00:30:49] what a good outcome looks like yeah and they need to be able to manage your expectations too sometimes

[00:30:53] you can when they're you got your expectations up here but realities are here I'll say a lot of

[00:30:58] owners when they're selling got this unrealistic expectation of their value as hard to talk them

[00:31:03] down from that because very much it's their baby their life their family so you've got to have a

[00:31:08] good advisor who will do the best for you but also manage your own expectations as well I think

[00:31:13] that's you know early it's if you plan as I would like to talk about if an owner sitting there

[00:31:21] wandering let's say they're at a stage where they're thinking I'm probably three to five years

[00:31:26] where I'd like to be out I mean to do it properly can take three or five years I think that's number one

[00:31:33] point to to make what what do you advise those how do you kick start like you can say I know I'd

[00:31:42] like to be out in three to five years I'd like to get X million dollars whatever it is because

[00:31:48] I think it's worth that so but where does that start today what are the the first important things

[00:31:55] I'd go back we're going to be in ten years so if you plan these in ten years you totally retire

[00:32:00] you're playing golf and fishing great let's work back because you're going to play golf

[00:32:03] and fish so many times yes so what other things you're going to do in your life that's going to be

[00:32:07] purposeful and if you feel that you know you might be doing other not for profit work or volunteer

[00:32:12] work or on boards or on boards that's right the work backwards from that yeah I see a lot of

[00:32:17] people particularly when we got the baby boomers coming through so many businesses who haven't

[00:32:21] got an exit plan yet they need to sell or want to sell but haven't thought out what's the future look

[00:32:25] like so you have to start where you want to be in ten years and work backwards from that

[00:32:29] well yeah so that's personally mainly right yeah but also then where the business fits into that

[00:32:36] yeah and then you work backwards from that okay I want to get to here he's what I've got to do

[00:32:39] and planning that who do you want to sell to so having a list of what would a what would the

[00:32:44] perfect deal look like in terms I love that business over there because they bring the you know

[00:32:49] one plus one could equal three and I know they'll look after my people and me that's really critical

[00:32:54] so having a hit list of people you'd like to sell to um scanning the market understanding

[00:32:59] when else is out there well you might even do something okay well my business I'm only going to

[00:33:02] get three times multiple for it we're not that but in five if I added one a smaller one I could buy

[00:33:09] in the meantime I could get five times in three so you can be strategic and do your own little

[00:33:14] acquisition first to give you scale and size is going to give you much bigger multiply in five

[00:33:18] years time so if you look at what you're doing a review of your business so we're big too small

[00:33:23] I want five times earnings but we're only going to get three because the size we are

[00:33:27] but if I buy another one and bring them together I could get seven so you do the things

[00:33:32] you will need that five year run way to plan where you want to be in that team yeah because you're

[00:33:36] actually looking ahead at first you're making a list of potential buyers right that's for a lot

[00:33:42] of businesses the only genuine buyer is going to come from within your supply chain or industry

[00:33:49] so it shouldn't be that hard there are mainstream businesses and buyers could come from anywhere but

[00:33:55] let's just so talk about the businesses if you can sit down on whiteboard I do this all the time

[00:34:01] who should buy you and why yeah and and the wise equally is important because you start to think

[00:34:08] about how your business could you know bolt onto theirs or you know fold in so then you go to you

[00:34:18] don't have to go and ring them tomorrow but you need you need to start thinking about who and why

[00:34:22] and then you need to track as you said what goes on industry so are there transactions or deals going

[00:34:30] on it three times earnings or ten times earnings so you can start and that but I think you need

[00:34:36] bring that down a little bit more granular to get your business assessed by someone who knows

[00:34:43] yeah what and say if you had to sell tomorrow this is what you get and and it's often a real wake-up

[00:34:50] call but if it's three months before you hope for exit timeline it's a disaster yeah if it's five

[00:34:58] years yeah and then then it really sets if you want to go after it you then have a platform from which

[00:35:06] to to do different things like focus on one area of the business not another but to grow the

[00:35:13] multiple and grow the earnings yeah you need to play for that and it's going to take at least two

[00:35:16] budget cycles to show you got the numbers that's going to look at yeah because you can't point to

[00:35:21] it's all going to change the next quarter yeah I want to see results and that's part of it you know

[00:35:25] but you also go to show the future growth opportunities another one is getting your contracting

[00:35:29] in place so makes sure you're clients from long-term contracts making sure you're not you know

[00:35:36] you're not concentrated too much on one client there's another big red flag for buyer yeah the

[00:35:41] value of any earnings coming from one client that's a that's a big risk that client walks so making

[00:35:46] sure you got diversity of client base keys your key staff are all lined up either they've got their

[00:35:52] contracts or they're not going to walk so there might be some you might need to do some sort of

[00:35:56] deal I'll get some upside as part of the any transaction if they hang around because last thing you

[00:36:00] want to sell your business only key people leave and become competitors which happens a lot yeah

[00:36:04] and that's going to want to they're the key risk that buyer is going to look at so sustainability

[00:36:08] revenue streams cost base and your key people and there that you know you've got to lock them

[00:36:13] all in place and it might take you that through five years right the obvious assistance you can get

[00:36:20] there is as the owner if you if you are key person in that business you can stay and run

[00:36:27] yourself or you can if you're planning longer term you can you can factor in time under their

[00:36:34] ownership but it goes to what we're talking about earlier you've got to make sure you actually

[00:36:39] wouldn't mind working it's not going to be perfect but if you can get to a point where you think I

[00:36:44] can I've then got my exit sorted that I'm going to be involved for a couple of years I'm excited

[00:36:49] or I can deal with that that's you know that's vitally important and it and some of those risks

[00:36:56] of having you know concentration with a few key customers or even the fact that you as

[00:37:01] you found are really important in the business you can mitigate and offset that by you know being

[00:37:07] ready to work with the buyer for a period of time yeah and there might be some steps in there too

[00:37:12] you might develop a strategic partnership where you help each other out particularly as ifs can

[00:37:18] you've got complimentary services or products so let's let's develop a strategic relationship

[00:37:23] we will work together on projects to get a bit of a feel for each other as well but have a try before

[00:37:27] you buy and I find that's a great way too then I've got to know their culture it more it's not

[00:37:32] really right for me my people but now we see a lot more opportunity let me in there so I think it

[00:37:37] is some little steps along the way you can do yeah we could even be a partial cell down it could be

[00:37:42] okay I'll sell your 30% now I've still got control but with a view that you're in two or three

[00:37:48] years time of certain hurdles are met I'll sell out right to you which is another good opportunity to

[00:37:53] keep control work through process and become comfortable with each other yeah it's the you're

[00:37:58] right in agitating by more proactively going to competitors or suppliers or customers and saying

[00:38:06] how about we you know with the overarching logic is maybe they're going to be a buyer of our

[00:38:13] business but let's get to know a bit more and see how they react I've got a couple on helping

[00:38:17] at the moment they're going through that process at the moment because they see together they can

[00:38:22] be far more powerful but it's just doing the dance at the moment where how much we want to be

[00:38:27] together is it a bit of a factor or a relationship or are we going to before we get married yeah

[00:38:31] what's your thoughts on and we've done a few of these non-binding indicative offers where

[00:38:38] I'm I'm a huge fan of you know there are state it's a dating it's a dating analogy you know

[00:38:46] you don't know each other you're getting to know each other a bit you go on a first date and

[00:38:50] maybe you get married but the um using something like a non-binding indicative offer which if

[00:38:57] you haven't heard the term it's it's a summary of the top line deal terms and it puts a bit of an

[00:39:05] owners on both parties to do certain things to continue to explore the deal that may not be the

[00:39:09] perfect legal definition but it's a working what it's so powerful at doing is getting both sides

[00:39:18] to commit to documenting some things without it being binding but it's it indicates that

[00:39:25] we're getting closer or moving further away because it's written down that we're going to

[00:39:30] we're looking at doing this deal it's confidential here's some high level commercial terms key

[00:39:37] deal terms we need you to stay on for three years you're the founder we need and you get to the point

[00:39:44] and I can't do that or or they highlight you know there's highlighted um problems that you've got

[00:39:50] it you've got some time to fix and if you don't but that that sort of governing documents are

[00:39:55] really important one isn't it to guide discussions from a phone call through all the way to a deal

[00:40:03] good and bad so good is it shows it shows him in Tinkton and that's great where I can start going

[00:40:10] back to my previous point if you're going anything that's the deal it's not the deal no it's definitely

[00:40:14] and I think you get people that educate themselves and mbi is not a deal so the number's not going

[00:40:19] to be the number it might go up more likely going to come down so be prepared for that secondly I see

[00:40:24] a lot of big companies um you just top lock yourself in for too long a period of exclusivity

[00:40:32] remember they've got another heap of other deals so that's not the most important thing like

[00:40:36] it's most important thing in your life but it's not the most important thing in their life so keep

[00:40:40] a really sharp um not exclusive period it's not going to waste your time yeah you want to get

[00:40:45] to know quick it's not going to happen get to know quick so you're not wasting your time your

[00:40:50] resources you'll be focusing on other things because see these draw out and all of a sudden you

[00:40:54] looked up at six months you haven't eaten your numbers because it's been so focused on this you've

[00:40:57] been driving the business so maximum I'll give you anywhere six weeks if you can't get a deal

[00:41:02] done in six weeks to that position well we're not you know it's not worth it yeah so I've seen drag

[00:41:07] out for 12 months sometimes it's just a total distraction yeah and yeah I think that goes to like

[00:41:13] poor creation of one of those documents you know and and you've got it it's like you've got to be

[00:41:19] deal sharp right this is um you can't have open-ended due diligence you can't have exclusivity there's

[00:41:26] things he does and early days is the time to say and to also stand your ground we're not if you

[00:41:33] receive one of these from a larger company and their their external advisors you say wouldn't

[00:41:40] we're not what we're not even close we're having an early discussion yeah yeah we're not going to

[00:41:46] and that's that's good to push back hard on things that don't make sense yeah

[00:41:52] I've had discussion on both sides where people really go and say hard let's well guess what

[00:41:56] when you buy me I'm gonna be negotiating just as hard for you so it's good to think

[00:42:00] for some we've respected dignity as course but um this you won't shot at it um they're not going

[00:42:05] to go easy on you they're gonna get the best deal for their shows you know you're all she hold

[00:42:09] you gotta do best deal for you that's why I think having independent advice in the middle doing

[00:42:14] the day to day crunching yeah it's really important so you take you out of the equation much as you can

[00:42:19] you've been got control when you want to sell if you don't want to sell but have those people

[00:42:23] have those hard conversations because it's you're not experienced enough to do it yeah you might

[00:42:27] be the best deal maker in your industry but you're not going to do that with a lawyer on the other

[00:42:30] side of the table and whatever might be your own accounts yeah and that and when you talk about

[00:42:36] deal making there it's in respect of that core service offering or that the core business but

[00:42:41] it's a whole different thing negotiating a business sale agreement very much so and live to the

[00:42:46] experts try and I know it's probably the most important thing you're doing in life business wise

[00:42:51] so you gotta try and make as unemotive as possible yeah sometimes it's impossible to do

[00:42:55] but in other days about transaction yeah again the best deal you can yeah which it goes to also

[00:43:03] your nearest and dearest right founder has been in the business for 20 30 40 years and they've

[00:43:12] got a personally as you said earlier look 10 years ahead and go what what am I going to do because

[00:43:17] they're wired in a particular way that it's it's often pretty hard just to to play

[00:43:22] play golf a lot or go because they should play golf like me it's frustrating I haven't done that yet

[00:43:28] but I'll take your word on it but it is you know there's a there is a big void and

[00:43:36] and then it that flows on to the you know your nearest and dearest you your family and so

[00:43:42] it does require you know some introspection and about

[00:43:49] assume you get a deal that's worthwhile what actually am I going to do and how is that gonna

[00:43:56] is that gonna be disruptive you know when you're not in an office or in a factory or whatever

[00:44:02] you're doing 40 50 60 hours away from all of them. You're starting to want to be having

[00:44:06] your own for lunch every day they're not used to is that you've been driving this business for

[00:44:10] 20 30 years it's been yeah and they've been up on the ups and downs and highs with you

[00:44:14] it's part of their life too but you got to it's got to be a family thing because you got no idea what

[00:44:19] is going to happen on the other side of your plan you might not want to see how many of you do

[00:44:23] yeah yeah and still so dearly but you know that's your lifestyle so you're going to have that

[00:44:27] broader chat with your family and yeah you partner like you know there's two you know whatever there's

[00:44:32] there's a family structure often and it's gonna it can be quite disruptive for one or other or both

[00:44:41] thinking about bringing this to back to what what your role is currently you know that you're

[00:44:51] not exactly directly you're a mentor you're a chair and it's a lot of the thinking of those

[00:44:59] businesses and those owners about an exit event or are you working with some who see that

[00:45:07] they're a long-term holder of a business and a combination of both so I've got some one with like

[00:45:12] an independent chair advisor to them which more growing the business of the moment so accessing

[00:45:17] capital helping the grow to get to a stage where they can have an exit in five so this is going out

[00:45:22] for some private equity or some yeah and there's a tough mark of the moment so once again managing

[00:45:27] expectations so getting the position so they can go ask for capsis the same thing you're wanting

[00:45:32] access to capital of debt to grow the business affects the same process of selling your business

[00:45:37] so getting them okay here's what you need to have in place to go ask for a capital because I want

[00:45:42] to grow internationally or open up new offices or it could be yeah I want to retire in a few years

[00:45:46] what do we do so I'm involved in both both sides of that and what I call the growth phase and

[00:45:52] the exit phase so I do a lot of that work and do board roles and do a lot of coaching

[00:45:57] I'm entering which I love and learn from all the mistakes I've made and do a lot around governance

[00:46:02] of boards which is something I'm passionate about to how they manage the business how they manage

[00:46:06] governance and risk and to allow our businesses to grow so there's a lot of those conversations

[00:46:14] I can imagine them being getting down nitty gritty on the personal aspirations legacy or

[00:46:20] I'm very much so because we get caught up in our business that's right it's a passion and it's

[00:46:26] hard work people don't know how many people can work nine to five in their own business it doesn't

[00:46:29] work like that it's a 24-7 thing and it takes a certain type of people who want to know which

[00:46:35] I've got a lot of respect for people who know the business because they know how hard it is

[00:46:39] they haven't got the cushy minimum event job where you take a paycheck and you turn off at five

[00:46:42] o'clock so and then it becomes entwined in your personality so really understanding what

[00:46:49] we want to go what's driving what's your purpose and always come back what is your purpose in

[00:46:53] the business it was just to make make right we can do that is that creating an environment of culture

[00:46:58] for people to grow and you'll get in at some stage you get an exit all also great so really

[00:47:04] understanding what makes them tick what's the motivation and where they want to be and always

[00:47:08] what's along to in plan it's pretty I think it's pretty hard in we're talking small businesses here

[00:47:14] and which can be you can be hundreds of millions of turnover tens it certainly tens of but

[00:47:22] many of them are in a centric and that's I think we've said this a few times we're both

[00:47:28] loving respect that and what we're trying to encourage is to be just really clear with

[00:47:33] what you want to do with your business and your team and that's get you know so I think

[00:47:38] we're getting some good advice early think ten years ahead and I'm just be conscious because

[00:47:45] going into I think it's I think it's phasing out but this idea that you can just put your

[00:47:53] business on the market and sell it when you're ready is it's a bit naive it's naive yeah

[00:48:00] and once again if that's why even if you're not playing your cell you're business

[00:48:04] enough it would come tomorrow so always have your business ready for sale yeah no I mean

[00:48:07] deans to agree but you know have you balance sheet up today making sure you're managing your debt

[00:48:12] all those various things at the first line they're going to look at so you need that may not have a

[00:48:16] plan if someone's going to cut off you enough money you'll eventually sell your business

[00:48:20] so be really ready for that so deal could come tomorrow yeah but you'll have that

[00:48:27] and it's good business practice anyway you should be doing those things running a business

[00:48:30] yeah look I think it's really it is easy to get caught and be incredibly good at what you do

[00:48:38] and make you know and have a successful business but what we're saying here is there's

[00:48:44] even if you're not considering selling but especially if you are you've got to have it's almost

[00:48:49] like you're going to have another hat on which is I've got a sense of what my business might be

[00:48:56] worth I've got a sense of who who's going to buy it I've got some advisors at the ready

[00:49:03] to help me if you know if I need to start proactively planning and yeah but it is

[00:49:10] and it's really hard when you're out there working all those hours to say then now I'm going to

[00:49:15] think about you can't because I don't think you can just completely outsource the sale of your

[00:49:20] business it starts with you and so tracking who's who in the industry but but tracking it from the

[00:49:28] point of view who's buying like why they're buying yeah and what what it so it's another hat you've

[00:49:34] got to wear yeah or you which is I think increasingly popular and important and makes a lot of

[00:49:42] senses have an advisory board or have some council someone you trust a couple of people you trust

[00:49:51] you get and talk particularly someone that brings experience of taking businesses through a

[00:49:57] sale process it could be a coffee meeting once every six months but as the owner it's on you to

[00:50:04] to have a you know where that other hat and be active in thinking about who's going to buy

[00:50:10] why yeah in some of it's I'm just establishing an advisory board at the moment for a startup in

[00:50:14] the biotech industry and that's the thing is get an advisory board you don't you don't you don't

[00:50:19] don't point them directly yet get an advisory board because as you grow through your growth stage

[00:50:23] you're going to need different skills but yeah you reward them whatever way you want to reward them

[00:50:27] but have good people around you can bounce ideas off and bounce and you know get challenged

[00:50:32] is more importantly be you don't want to yes people and people to challenge your thinking and why

[00:50:36] you're doing that so the advisory board is great doesn't cost too much you don't lose control because

[00:50:40] you're still the director and owner but I find the advisory board is really good now if you get to a

[00:50:45] stage where you want to formalize that you can move that to a more formal governance structure and

[00:50:50] point them as directors yeah advisory board's great and people love to help you and these people

[00:50:54] like who have seen what you've gone through they've done themselves I want to help and I think

[00:50:59] it's a lot of greater people out there you can advise you and and be that that that sounding board

[00:51:03] yeah everyone needs it yeah and and it's it's more accessible and ever pop up advisory boards you

[00:51:11] know coffee meetings mentoring networking groups with you know all those chatroom house rules we can

[00:51:17] go to you know like I imagine that's with you know this the CEO institutes non competitive individuals

[00:51:25] talking about the challenges that they find it really hard to talk groups there if we see us

[00:51:30] and they've all got the same challenges doesn't mean if you're running a 30 million business

[00:51:33] or 300 million it many of the problems are still the same yeah and and and it's either that loneliness

[00:51:39] of being a business owner we get to talk about a lot but it doesn't have to be that way yeah I know

[00:51:45] even from a CEO perspective you're running a bigger business that you might have a great

[00:51:48] relationship with the chair in your board but certain things you don't want to share with them

[00:51:51] it's going to be times when you're vulnerable I don't know what to do or I'm stuck yeah so you want

[00:51:56] that trusted advisor who is not going to impact on your career but you can open up be vulnerable to

[00:52:01] and change know some of the being a business owner yeah you need to have someone you you trust

[00:52:06] implicitly it's got your best interests at heart but aren't a cheerleader yeah they're going

[00:52:10] to have you do his wonderful they're going to say why would you do that but knowing it the

[00:52:14] and I've got a couple in my life too I if I want a pitch and idea I'll go straight to them because

[00:52:18] I'll tell him straight away if it's if it's not going to work or um you know it's bullshit so

[00:52:23] having those people you trust implicitly because they know they got your interests at heart but

[00:52:27] they'll also be honest with you yeah yeah and that's you know you gotta let go a little bit right

[00:52:32] but and try and and you don't do it you get hard-wired when you're running a business that's

[00:52:37] all on you yeah to do this stuff but somewhere you gotta you gotta kind of challenge yourself to

[00:52:43] to bring in a bit of um outside council at a personal business level yeah it makes a lot of sense

[00:52:51] yeah well um better ripping chat thank you it's um nitty gritty of deals

[00:53:02] and uh any any I always like to kind of find out who you're

[00:53:10] who you look up to and you know date you've got a pretty active career you know mentoring

[00:53:16] directing directing and you know owning and raising fun says but who do you look up to and take

[00:53:26] motivation from as you as you go about doing what you do uh a lot of different mentors or people I

[00:53:33] trust who I can talk to where I've they've been there and done that from I built a great

[00:53:37] relationship with superior cause growth when he was um governor general because you love

[00:53:41] his cricket right nice and great chats we like an MBA don't know how we're talking about leadership

[00:53:45] issues and challenges a cricket at the time binna got my mates who I know are older than me

[00:53:50] and being there and done that um in certain aspects of their life so I can bounce ideas yeah the

[00:53:55] wife been yeah fantastic support all the way through and she's very different to me personality

[00:54:00] why she's very uh considered and not you know very straight down the line so if I can get

[00:54:06] to get it through the head of the opposition and all the good good idea but having those support

[00:54:11] people around you and having a great family and great friends who you can tap in do is probably

[00:54:15] the best yeah and there's a lot of good business vibes out there you've been there and done it

[00:54:19] yeah um and always up for a coffee yeah so don't be frightened to worse thing that says no

[00:54:24] yeah so if any aspiring or any business zone out there want to chat to people reach out to

[00:54:29] I mean it's so easy to have LinkedIn and another way and very hard most people say yes

[00:54:34] yeah I honestly slightly different thing but I you know my uh uh kids and and and kids of

[00:54:42] friends of you know coming along and sometimes I sit with them just about there in next steps

[00:54:46] in their career and and you know talk about you know LinkedIn as it seems foreign but to some

[00:54:53] of them but mainly it's saying to them reach out to people with a bit of you know do a bit of

[00:55:01] research there are many people who would like to help you and they can be friends of the family

[00:55:07] or they can be in an industry that your contemplate there are a lot of people if you ask nicely

[00:55:12] in the right way well give you a bit of and not everyone will give you the right advice and not

[00:55:16] everyone will respond but you know in built um idea that you can you should be getting out and

[00:55:24] meeting new people and getting some influence and some guidance from them is a good thing

[00:55:30] to hold agree and most people in the at your age they want to give back they love seeing new people

[00:55:35] come through having a crack and I love it when I love when people reach out kind of a coffee

[00:55:39] love to um and I really respected that they've done that and I want to give back you want to help

[00:55:44] you want to yeah so yeah don't be shy of asking he's probably to do it the right way

[00:55:48] yeah I think now particularly as we're coming out of COVID we have coming out of COVID

[00:55:53] and people not going back to the office I think any if any business that's a bad thing because

[00:55:58] you're a very young person entrepreneur or you're missing out on so many opportunities to

[00:56:01] network and learn unless it's slightly off topic but getting out and talking to people meeting

[00:56:06] people is the best way of listening yeah it's almost like it's been it's been challenging for the

[00:56:11] last you know four five years to actually do that for it's been constrained and so now I more

[00:56:17] never embrace it and um whether our age in business or you know whoever yeah younger adults

[00:56:25] looking to progress their career it's they've you know I got shut out of the unies for years

[00:56:31] it all online now their first years of career you know largely at home or yeah so anyway

[00:56:38] uh slightly off topic but you know it's all it's all relevant because we want um you know people

[00:56:45] owners and other to you know build good networks around them and yeah well the small business makes

[00:56:51] up 95% of the Australian workforce if you're everywhere from the local coffee shop to the plumber

[00:56:55] or whatever might be it's the backbone of the Australian economy so the more they can do it right

[00:57:00] the better it is for everybody so any we do to help small business really important at some stage

[00:57:04] you're going to sell it we need to sell it because you're retiring do a problem because it could

[00:57:08] be the only it's probably apart from your house you own it's going to be the biggest financial

[00:57:13] event in your life so get it done right and and and way more complex in selling at home yeah and

[00:57:18] that's what I think gets misunderstood it's sometimes a lot more emotional too sometimes mostly

[00:57:24] all right El if anybody wanted to have a coffee or reach out to you where where do they

[00:57:30] what's easy swathed uh probably either on LinkedIn or my email ill.edingsadreamil.com okay

[00:57:36] well much appreciate time has been really insightful thank you thanks blog I'll really enjoy it

[00:57:48] well I hope you enjoyed that episode of Small Business Banta and I hope it was helpful in you

[00:57:53] getting the most out of your small business ownership to subscribe or listen back or to check out

[00:57:59] any of the resources or information we talked about today head over to the website smallbusinessbanta.com.au

[00:58:07] or if you want search up small business banter on your favourite podcast player don't forget to

[00:58:12] subscribe and if it was really helpful I'd love it if you told another business owner about the

[00:58:17] podcast if you thought it was and how about you leave me a five star rating if you think I can help

[00:58:25] personally please reach out to me Michael Curve either website there's a new episode out every

[00:58:31] couple of weeks we'll catch up then