Darren Clark talks about helping his clients convert ideas into businesses, and why they benefit from his own, very rich business building and exiting experience.

[00:00:00] Hi, it's Michael Kerr here presenting Small Business Banter. Welcome to the Small Business Banter podcast. I'm Michael Kerr your host and I'm also the founder of Kerr Capital where I work day to day with business owners.

[00:00:21] The Small Business Banter podcast is built just for business owners and will be especially relevant if you're an owner looking to sell, if you've been unexpectedly approached by a potential buyer or if you're an aspiring owner about to buy a new business.

[00:00:37] There's a lot on the line personally and financially. It's stressful, it's emotional and it's usually new territory. So to help each episode of Small Business Banter is a discussion between me and another business owner or an experienced Small Business Advisor. We talk about their experiences.

[00:00:58] So what you'll get is practical real life advice, different takes on everyday problems and a renewed confidence to tackle your own business challenges. Welcome into edition 140 of Small Business Banter podcast. Darren Clark joins me today. Hearty welcome Darren. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:35] Darren I'd like you to kind of give us a little bit of your background in your own words. You're a multiple founder of businesses. You've had experiences exiting or near exiting and we want to talk about both of those and the impact on you personally, professionally, financially.

[00:01:58] But you've had rich experience through the process of building businesses as well as helping other owners in your current business get better prepared to make more money and make their businesses more efficient. So what's the Darren Clark story just to kick us off?

[00:02:16] I suppose I kind of look at businesses doing what I love, which is building software. I kind of I love building software and being able to build software for other people and help them.

[00:02:29] You know, not just me, myself and you know, but my team helping people build software so that builds them a better business is just, I don't know, it's really enjoyable.

[00:02:40] I've had one agency that worked on for 13 years with a business partner of mine, had some experience with startups building her own startup back into agency land again and again doing another startup at the moment. Okay, so we'll come back to that, you know, that, that issue.

[00:03:00] What's the business, DazzLab as it is today? Let's get, let's get a bit of a handle on that. Yeah, so DazzLab is a, we're a small sort of boutique bespoke custom software development house.

[00:03:13] We primarily again just build custom software if so we don't, we wouldn't look after just entertaining websites that just have content in them. We're talking about really functional systems for B2B, for the B2B market.

[00:03:29] And your, many or most of your clients are other small businesses is that? Yeah, yeah, I would say a lot of ours, the majority of ours are small businesses.

[00:03:42] They've, they're founded niche, they found a, you know, an industry that they're good at and they look to create software as a way to help creating new revenue stream for themselves but also majority of them are also trying to solve a problem that these companies are trying to solve.

[00:03:58] They exist in their industry that they already have so much knowledge in. And so, yeah, they use digital products and software to effectively create another asset to make their current business bigger.

[00:04:10] Because, yeah, because the contrast might be that the way they're solving those problems now is by consulting giving advice by the hour is, and you're saying we can put some infrastructure or some tech or some systems or some processes.

[00:04:28] To make that both maybe more scalable but also when it comes to the exit of that business, maybe some down somewhere down line there is that asset you referred to rather than just a like a more intangible sort of know how.

[00:04:46] Yeah, yeah, I think because because they would a lot of them have had manual operations for doing whatever you know the industry they're in being able to automate that not only for themselves but again for their colleagues in that industry and for the clients that are in that industry to create automated ways and again to create additional revenue streams.

[00:05:08] Either to be a part of the company they already have or to be a separate company that they can build the value in. License the IP ads or something. Yeah, majority nowadays it's monthly software as a service monthly subscription type of rates.

[00:05:28] Summer transaction base but yeah very much very much recurring revenue never really sell it once and then you know never sell it again. Yeah, yeah. That you know this is and I did in reading some notes and having a discussion with you prior to today.

[00:05:49] It was very clear that to me that your experience as a founder did inform the way you want to work with the clients you work with now. I think you went through some like we all do some challenges and some pain and then to helping building software.

[00:06:10] It's about building revenue and about a building an asset but it's also about ideally making life easier. It's never easy but making it you know a bit more smoother in your day to day operation of a business.

[00:06:25] I think that's a great you know that's a great start point to try to help another client or another small business.

[00:06:32] Yeah, I think it's all kind of look at as refining what you do over your own career like my first agency that I had business part of we did things in certain ways and they were the best practices and they were the industry norms and so that's what you followed.

[00:06:50] After leaving that and now starting up does that which there are some similarities in it but when I started does that but looked at what do we do before that I really don't want to do again and what were the things before that I'd really like to do more of so that we can do it better.

[00:07:06] Not just for me for the business but also for the clients that we help how can we provide more value in a more efficient way.

[00:07:17] Yeah, I think that there is a I think there's a disconnect often you know we see lots of offers come in if you're running a business you're getting approached all the time to build new things and outsource this and you know but when you can talk to someone about what you do but also bring to that your experience as a founder

[00:07:45] you know and having those moments of frustration I think what you do is combine helping someone better run their business with you know then selling them some services or however you.

[00:08:00] Yeah, yeah, I'd have to agree with that like this when it comes to building any startup or any new product for instance there's many different components of that it's not just I've got an idea I need to build a business.

[00:08:15] I've got a piece of software that's really the first part of it but then it's how do you plan in for the support and how do you plan the marketing afterwards and how do you plan in all of the upgrades because we've gone through that a couple of times before.

[00:08:30] And then we go through it with our current clients it means that we can advise new clients on all of those things so it's not just advising on the one software build part but it's about how do you look at you know making the best efficiencies of hiring the right staff.

[00:08:46] How do you when do you outsource when do you have full time or that kind of thing. Otherwise you risk having this theoretically great piece of software that sits out in isolation from the rest of the day to day of the business. So very much so.

[00:09:00] I think that's probably why the pain points I see a lot and I've said it was seen a lot in the past is that there's a vision of I've built the product but then where do you go next.

[00:09:13] And I suppose that's with any business just the launching the product or launching the business is one thing keeping it running and keeping it expanding and keeping in front of top of mind of your potential customers. That's a that's you know triple the amount work.

[00:09:28] Yeah and the energy that you have going into something new when it's fresh and exciting is can often be a lot different to two three four years down the long way. You know that that that is waned.

[00:09:47] And and then you're you know then you're trying to sustain the business and that's where I think a lot of it does prompt and it's good it prompts some thinking about what do I want to do with my business.

[00:09:57] And and if you if you think deep deeper along about what you want to do with your business that's a good thing in the outcome might be that you maybe so that it's I'm out.

[00:10:10] I want to move on so maybe not this is where I think there's a lot of opportunity to help owners just rethink what they what's possible with their business and and tech and software and is is going to be you know a very significant part of any or most restructuring of the business if you want to call it that.

[00:10:33] You bring up a good point about starting again so when we sold the agency.

[00:10:40] I thought that was amazing and it was amazing but then the whole starting a new business again it was tough like trying to find a new proposition trying to find new customers trying to find a new brand like it takes a lot of energy to go through that.

[00:10:57] Sometimes I think you need to look at is the exit is exiting and selling everything a good thing is selling half of the good things restructuring good thing because you know when you sell a business you only have the one chance to sell it once you can't.

[00:11:12] Once you're out you're out and you're starting again from scratch it's a bit of it's a lot different.

[00:11:20] How did how did that first sale come about was it was there a plan to build an exit or was it just serendipitous that you were doing something good in the market and somebody approached you how did it come about.

[00:11:36] I don't necessarily think we were looking you know we didn't start the business with the idea of looking to have someone buys out we were two good friends who started a business and thought we love what we do.

[00:11:50] But you know once we got to the 10 year mark 11 year market it became you know our lives had changed everything else had changed so we we did start to look and but also I think I think we kind of started to look after we already got approached as well.

[00:12:04] People found out what we did they like what we did they kept they found out what happened this is how we could fit in. We're what we call a full service digital agency back then which meant we did software development we did the digital marketing we did campaigns.

[00:12:19] We did all of it and some of the we eventually went to JW team WPP and they looked at us and said we don't have digital in our team and so it was a nice fit for us to get into that spot.

[00:12:33] So we started these are very significant global company to global multinational. Yeah yeah that's right and that was a lovely moment to in some ways was lovely moment for them to reach out and say we'd like to talk about this with you.

[00:12:53] It was you know at that time was a bit of a pattern to realise we have done something right here. We have done something well for someone like them to notice.

[00:13:02] Well that's true and but I think you know what what you're saying earlier is that you may have had a few moments since we're in starting the second one where you go maybe you know there are other ways to cut you know or deal with the first one is it well.

[00:13:20] Yeah I think in hindsight you always look back and think what if I did it this way versus that way. I still think where our company was at the time the environment for digital agencies was very much changing.

[00:13:38] Everyone was going to each everyone was you know if you're a digital marketing you would be digital marketing or your software house or you were this or that we kind of did everything.

[00:13:50] In some ways we would have had to have moved or changed the direction of the business at one point so it fitted the new market that we're in.

[00:14:00] Yes yeah I suppose that's where does love comes in my way to look at does love and go oh I know exactly what we want to do just want to do custom software development don't want to do the digital marketing don't want to do the camp.

[00:14:12] Just the software depth so we could really specialise in what we love.

[00:14:18] Yeah yeah like this is you know the reflections you have and that you are now sharing with other owners are really important because mostly owners will have one business and they may or may not sell it.

[00:14:34] They may want to sell it and can't but that's you know there are serial entrepreneurs who start you know talk about building to exit and a lot of a lot of others are really one business one owner businesses and for them.

[00:14:55] And at the end of that there is you know as a pathway to something else a lot of the time it's to into retirement or it's into you know maybe into employment in somewhere else but you know we're not talking about you know the majority of people going through the exit experience five times over their life.

[00:15:19] You know that's why what you in those reflections are so important to other owners and I think you also you know your reference that and sometimes there's a time when you even if it doesn't suit you or the timing is not right for the from the market's perspective what you've got is hot.

[00:15:43] Yeah and so you need that's a that's another trade off that maybe things you know if you don't do that maybe things will get harder because.

[00:15:52] Yeah I think that's why my business part of the time was you know and we looked at it was that it was going to get harder if we continued to do what we do. But it worked out you know it was a good end.

[00:16:05] I think with the DASLOB stuff that we're doing on I'm not actually looking at Spaniard look at the way we set up account accounts and all the lessons that we learned from the exit before I look at the way I've set up the accounts and there's so much more structure in there.

[00:16:19] So that would be easier if someone did want to come and buy the company but I don't actually this isn't one that I want to sell. I kind of it's a service business which I'm enjoying working on over time.

[00:16:32] I don't have a due date if I want to sell or if I want to sell it but we are working on another startup moment that should be launching around April that definitely would be a product that we are that that you know that has an exit plan before we've even started.

[00:16:46] Yeah. Yeah. Because it's a different product. Yeah. Well and you're already seeing that as something that could be compartmentalized and sold off without affecting that positioning. I do want to ask you about what you learned and what you might do differently.

[00:17:07] You know if you had your time over we don't but just. Yeah. But but also that the position you've you know you're moving much more towards where the business is well set up. It does it is in a better place if someone did knock on the door.

[00:17:24] You don't want that to happen but that's that's a much stronger position to be in when you feel like the business is saleable but I don't want to sell because it you're living your own philosophy of.

[00:17:39] Building in you know such the business you know you're managing it and it's you know producing a good return and they're under no stress on our. Yeah.

[00:17:51] The start look I think the difference so with does love very much with the agency we sold we we were so much in the business we were working day to day on all the projects like.

[00:18:06] And one of the things we learned during the sale process was what would happen if we removed you out of the out of the business. Could it run and it could.

[00:18:19] We did have team in there that could run there was some things that we had to extract ourselves away from you know in the in the months and months leading up to the sale and shortly after. And I suppose it's one of the learnings with.

[00:18:32] The new business now is that.

[00:18:35] It's all been set up on the premise that I'm not the one spending any hours a week stressing about all the little details like we have brought in processes so that things are repeatable we've brought in people to work in those processes so it's if we did sell the definite answer that question of it.

[00:18:56] Yes of course you can run it without me because I don't spend 80 hours a week on it which is separate to the setting up of the books.

[00:19:05] Yeah so just yes you know rain making getting getting work you know steering the ship and you've got a more of a team below you know to do. The components of the work that's what you mean by yeah.

[00:19:22] Yeah yeah even the sales process with we're having started to engineer that so that again it's there's only one part of that that I'm a part of.

[00:19:33] Again so that I'm not you know I'm not the roadblock in a lot of ways you know the team can start to grow of its own accord without any one person being a roadblock.

[00:19:42] Yeah yeah I mean it's the it's probably that you know in the sale transition of any small business most typically the number one challenge to address for the seller is and for the buyer is what happens to the business when the seller is not there.

[00:20:04] And if it if it doesn't break then it's more attractive to buyers but if you follow that line of logic it's also more attractive for the for the owner to not sell it they don't need to be wound up in the day to day.

[00:20:23] Yeah yeah I think the logic is you know building to exit is so much of it is about you know systems and processes which is what you do you're helping us do that but then the necessity or the pressure to sell is reduced.

[00:20:44] And yeah you know I have these discussions often with owners about well if you do sell your business what do you do with your time but also what do you find can you find a similarly attractive return on whatever you might get out of the business where

[00:21:03] you've got a business that is largely or significantly running without you working 80 hours a week as you said. Yeah it's a good question if you're only spending five hours on a business and it's generating good income for you.

[00:21:23] If you do sell you've got to start again sometime like even if you're only working five hours a week on a business you're still thinking about it.

[00:21:32] You're still planning for something to happen to something to happen but there's always it's still on your mind which is long as it's not a no to bearing weight then it does break the question would you sell or would you not.

[00:21:46] Is it better just to be kept or do you really want the money and it depends I suppose how old you are do you want the money to buy a bigger house a bigger holiday you know a holiday house so you know can you use that money somewhere else for something else that actually outweighs the need of running it every day.

[00:22:03] Yeah. That's you know that's a I think a pretty overlooked part of what we might call exit planning is.

[00:22:15] It's getting us gear up the business make it look attractive do all these things but you know what what do you do as the owner afterwards and and there's a side financials aside it can often be a big void which is.

[00:22:31] And if you feel wide in a particular way you know I strongly suggest a lot of people might be might be better to restructure their business and staying and have you know whatever they get from as long as it's it's in you know within their.

[00:22:50] It's it's it works for them however that's measured and that's a it's a really you know positive outcome but it does it doesn't just come sometimes it gets prompted because more and more what happened to with you and your.

[00:23:08] Inbound inquiry about selling us is interesting that happens more and more but it doesn't. Necessarily I'm still one. Deal with that always in the right way I can get very excited very emotional this is going to be an easy out but. And I think some owners regret it.

[00:23:30] It's it then becomes a line in the sand for what you know and a good. Place start to make decisions about what do I want to do and and how do I do business.

[00:23:42] Yeah and how to stop the depression if you don't have anything to do after the business. Because it's because you got all of a sudden you've got time on your hands that you didn't have before without without social contact that you normally have data on.

[00:23:57] With everyone that you work with. You know it is absolutely and if anybody is listening that that studies are it's a real factor to be thought about discussed get the right advice council.

[00:24:14] I mean you know it's it's hard and lonely enough in a small business without these are major decisions that. It's good to have external counsel. It's good to have the perspective of other owners like like we're getting that from you today and.

[00:24:37] There are ways to navigate those that opportunity when someone knocks on the door a bit better. Hi there it's just a quick interruption to the podcast and it's a message from Kerr Capital a supporter of the podcast.

[00:24:53] If you're a business owner thinking about selling and you're unsure about what you should do well the worst thing you can do is jump straight into an unprepared business sale. Cross your fingers and hope for the best.

[00:25:05] If you want to take control get a sense of what your business is really worth and a plan to make it more sellable then head over on to the Kerr Capital website. Check out the value and sellability diagnostic.

[00:25:18] If it piques your interest contact me Michael Kerr or book one of the free 45 minute diagnostic calls. Now let's head back to the podcast.

[00:25:30] One thing that does come to mind about the sale process was ours to I think ours is nine months or you know it's quite a long time. And you're mentally thinking of that all of these things that happen during the exit.

[00:25:46] You know I've got to send this piece of paper missing that piece of paper. You know what's the final number going to be is they're going to be out so how long do I have to stay.

[00:25:54] You've got all of that but you forget that you've got to run the business every day. You've got to continue to grow the business every day because where you don't want to be is in a situation where you haven't been able to do anything.

[00:26:07] You haven't been growing the business like the years before and then then the deal becomes much more important for it to happen. And you've kind of put all your eggs in one basket thinking about it.

[00:26:20] I think that the idea would be to put more weight on just keep on running the business as you would and try and you know more of a 80 20 relationship versus a 20 to 80 relationship.

[00:26:33] Where you know with the 80 is on still running the business and still giving yourself options because it's just like the buyer buying you. You've still got to sell it and so they might decide the last minute not to buy.

[00:26:45] You also want to be armed with a great business that maybe is better than when you first started the due diligence. And then you could also make the call go well maybe maybe I find something else for it whatever it might be.

[00:26:59] No it's very much on the money Darren. Particularly when the process starts with a call in out of the blue and you think you can't and there are buyers dealing with a very large multinational agency like that.

[00:27:21] They're pretty much professional buyers right they buy companies all around the place so they. And you know you can get very excited and sometimes I can make you feel very excited and you know it's about if you don't keep your foot on the accelerator.

[00:27:40] A few things can happen. You know that the advantage shifts to them in terms of those deals are always subject to due diligence or further analysis and that's where things get squeezed.

[00:27:55] Or it just you know it just makes it really actually quite challenging for them to buy so that it is a real trap. But again to go through that on your own if you haven't been through a process like that. It's the time to get some advice.

[00:28:16] Oh yeah I think somebody experienced about what do I say how do I play this out. Do I play it out. There's a whole range of questions that should come up. Yeah I think we had someone help us out the entire way.

[00:28:33] There is no way that we could have done it ourselves.

[00:28:36] I think mentally you're that stressed about triple dot triple thinking about everything that what if I do this if I do this this this like it's it was just all consuming and again because you don't have the knowledge you've never been there.

[00:28:49] I think even if I was there four or five times I would still I'd have to have someone by my side that can think clearly because obviously I'm not you know like you're thinking this whatever the sale price is going to affect you which means instantly your bias.

[00:29:09] So in a lot of ways you have to be removed from that decision making process and have someone beside you that can help you through it. Yeah I want to come back to who that was just on today's edition of small business banner podcast.

[00:29:23] I'm chatting with Darren Clark from DazzLab and I didn't mention that you you're based up on the Central Coast in New South Wales. Yeah just just just back for the beach shop in in the battle.

[00:29:39] Yeah fine kind of the world. What kind of advisor did you use through that process. It was a business coach and was someone that actually they were set up to help companies go through the process of you know acquisitions.

[00:29:58] He had come from an accounting background. He was actually a referral from our accountant and he also then we went from that person at the start and then once the lawyers got involved our lawyer was very instrumental on being that person that we could you know ask.

[00:30:20] So at first it was more around negotiations the how the what why would it work. Once we got functioning the goal I think and then we had an early term sheet or our current what we called them.

[00:30:34] And then we then the lawyer came in that he was the one that we worked through and he was the one that gave us advice and said they're asking for this. No they're asking for this.

[00:30:45] Yeah it seems like maybe we should just question this this. And obviously the accountant was there you know at every step along the way as well.

[00:30:55] Yeah but so you got that's three external advisors I mean you've got to have you've always got to have the right kind of legal advisor to interpret term sheet or the contract and that's because it can so easily go straight there and you're trusted accountant or.

[00:31:13] But then you know someone who's got experience of fine tuning dealing with the other party. That's that you know it's also a role that's vital not always suited to the accountant lawyer there you know that you've got to use this team at the right time in the right way.

[00:31:34] Yeah yeah I think I was lucky because I had a business partner that we both went through it together so we also became emotional.

[00:31:43] Support for each other as well as you know our partners at home that emotional support also was kind of vital. So if I was if you're a single you know if you're selling the business and you're a sole owner of it.

[00:31:58] I think I to me I might get a counselor psychologist to work with during the process because there are just so many things that go through your head just during the need to talk to someone about just to keep yourself clear.

[00:32:13] And I'm yet and I imagine there can be a lot of questions as well like when you when your partner family friends everyone's pretty much interested in how the you know if it is public that has a how's it going but you know can go up and down so many times.

[00:32:32] I'm not sure necessarily unless you've been through it. You can really get a hands on how topsy turvy can be. I think when you're waiting for an email that's supposed to come through by the end of the day and you keep looking at your watch going.

[00:32:53] It's five o'clock into the day is five thirty six is eight is ten. Those are the ones that do they do you have is just constantly on edge of just waiting. Yeah sure be done by next Friday money in the bank. Yeah that's that way nothing.

[00:33:16] No no you know and look at you know it's part of I think it's I think for the best of intentions. You know it's just part of the you know it's part of the process that there's this you know waxing and waiting.

[00:33:34] You know you got that you know if it's the first time it's it's you know can be so you know emotionally depleting.

[00:33:45] You're also buying in it's we have to make sure that who who who because once it's sold we were working for these people working with with or for these people for a certain number of years afterwards

[00:34:00] and you have to get to know them and you have to know that it's right for the relationship post acquisition.

[00:34:08] Yeah but can it is it is another very significant relationship with in a in a different with a different set of goals and potentially different culture and different operating systems

[00:34:25] and a whole lot of things that you're absolutely right that in that because it can be combative leading into it in a professional way.

[00:34:37] But then if you are going to be around for a couple of years you've got to you've got to remember that you don't want to kind of fold on on significant things.

[00:34:49] You want to but you also you've got to pick your battles because you're going to be working together or under their guidance or under their leadership and that's you know you don't want to kind of create a real chasm.

[00:35:03] Yeah I suppose some of that which shows through when you're doing negotiations if they're really going to play hardball with you and you're playing hardball with them.

[00:35:12] You've got to think is that what I want for the next two years or do I want someone that actually is going to be fair. Go out get cool cool we'll give that you give this and give and take maybe it depends to you after what you want.

[00:35:27] Yeah it's a couple of episodes back. Bill Eddings came on and we chatted about that and many related things but he's been through many many transfers and he's been on both sides.

[00:35:43] But he was a very big advocate for getting as you flagged support the right expertise to go go negotiate things on your behalf while you continue to run the business. But also your cognizant of you're going to be working and he's bought into a lot of people business.

[00:36:09] You know service businesses so they were always going to be generally going to be a period of transition or now working together so you didn't want to go so hard that you couldn't face up on the Monday morning so that we find.

[00:36:26] You know the crap out of each other for you know and there's there are ways and ways to do that or to negotiate without you know really kind of impacting that you know relationship that's going to be there for a couple of years if you're earning out or working.

[00:36:43] Yeah very true very true. I just wanted to talk with. That dad's lab and the work you do you know you made you talked about what you do but I'm kind of interested just in how. You might.

[00:37:04] Work with an owner to sell the idea to an owner that what you do is valuable you've got lots of domain expertise you've been doing for a while but.

[00:37:17] Particularly if they had a mind to selling you know how you would you would talk to them about automating or putting in place.

[00:37:25] Software tech systems whatever you do to to on the basis that it's an investment to ideally make their business easier to run and ideally more profitable what's what's the discussion with an owner about that.

[00:37:42] I suppose we're involved earlier on in the businesses so we're involved when they're still in the building phase and for us it's about them understanding that well this thing that you're putting money into this software product that you're putting money into is like putting money into a corporate office or whatever building it's your building an asset that you're putting money into.

[00:38:12] And that asset then has a worse is once it can start to generate revenue and generate revenue by itself you still have to support it and you still have to have all these other costs associated with it.

[00:38:23] And I think it's then about it's just understanding that when you sell your business you're selling part of its service now and part of its and you know reoccurring revenue which is clearly outlined and being able to divide up how much the cost takes to run this business versus that one.

[00:38:43] But again it's just about building an asset so you can build in additional revenue which hopefully then helps with the final number that you get because you know acquisition rates for a SaaS product are very different than a service product.

[00:39:01] Yeah I think they're off the scale different in terms of what an owner might expect if they were to say yeah. Yeah exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's much huge difference in the two of them.

[00:39:14] Can you talk about a couple one case study like to bring this to you got a wholesale distribution business out there or some other kind of service business what are some of the typical things.

[00:39:29] Do you go back to right back to first principles you know what you know what where do you do business almost like a diagnostic and then so we can automate this week and you know we can.

[00:39:43] A lot of a lot of our businesses a lot of the clients come to us with a problem that they've noticed in their industry. That's typically where it starts.

[00:39:52] It's like my customers have a problem with doing this but they're doing it manually they're doing it you know slow and whatever it is how can we then automate it how can we make it smoother.

[00:40:03] Or in a lot of cases it's more information going out so one client so mental health client and his product is about sharing his expertise and his knowledge so it helps more consumers have a better grip on that.

[00:40:20] What mental health is so he's a he's a council psychologist or psychologist. Yes psychologist and so he's a he's product isn't interactions with him his product is knowledge that he's being able to share out to the world.

[00:40:36] And so that's you know and obviously you sign up and he's helping businesses look after this their staffs mental health. So for him it's you know that's where the recurring revenue is less of less about automation to do with his business.

[00:40:53] So again more to do with you know making more money from the information he's got other businesses. It really depends most of them they're providing value through knowledge or they're providing value through interactions providing an improved process on something.

[00:41:10] Yeah but but they are it sounds like you know there's a lot of that how do I solve a problem type entrepreneurialism.

[00:41:22] Yeah they're already working with clients and they're saying and so the case of that psychologist actually partly his problem as well because I know a lot of stuff but I can only do six hours a day.

[00:41:35] Four days a week. So there's a cap on that unless you can find another way to deliver that information. Yeah another client was they were doing they advise and consult on how to manage a big compliance process.

[00:41:55] And it was all manual paperwork and so the platform that we helped establish with them is all around automating that having all the compliance documentation and checklists and signing approvals all stored in one digital place available on mobile desktop apps.

[00:42:15] And again that helps his clients do their compliance job a lot faster. And so yeah there's again is a re-agreing revenue model through monthly subscription by per user. In terms of the cost and ease with which you can access development now compared to ten years ago is it.

[00:42:45] We take a different approach. My last agency we hide all we hide everyone in Australia and the problem is the Australian software developer rates have gone up a fair amount. You've got people like Canva who are trying to hire 100 software developers in the one go.

[00:43:09] You had CBA at last year doing the same thing. But those those big guys taking out hundreds of developers every week. It's very hard to hire staff you know it throughout Australia.

[00:43:24] So with that's our approaches to we instantly look global so we have no real country of preference. It's about finding the most skilled person that we need and our process is all is all remote. We've been built to be remote from the beginning.

[00:43:43] Yeah so you see it you see a big challenge in recruiting locally because it's not. I have this discussion often in your businesses more industrial businesses or manufacturing. There's a lot of manufacturing has come back significantly from the doom and glimmer of 10 or 15 years ago.

[00:44:09] But probably across the industry recruiting people and is a major hurdle. Manufacturers going out to get boiler makers and particular trade skills. Are competing against in the Victoria the big build. So like you know a trained tradesman can go off and much more money.

[00:44:38] And so these manufacturing businesses with opportunities they go begging because they can't get people. Yeah yeah. So you can either sit and complain about it or we've kind of you've got to find a way to get to get work done for your clients.

[00:45:00] So for us that that avenue is well and look with COVID the way after COVID everyone wants to work remote anyway. So I'm hiring a software engineer in anywhere is no different than hiring software engineer nowadays in Australia. Everyone is remote in that industry.

[00:45:22] In services or yeah yeah the hands on stuff it's you know. Hands on very different though yeah very much so. Yeah. I also like we've really covered a lot of grounds and I think we're making you know a strong case for

[00:45:46] really looking at what right now the exit planning or not making a case for evaluating ways you can make your business more efficient and more productive and more profitable. And you know from from there my kind of my hope is that you know more owners do that.

[00:46:08] And then at some point there's there might be a trigger that you want to get approached. And if you're doing a good job in your businesses is investing in better processes and better tech.

[00:46:23] In a lot of industries you will you will be on the radar of a bigger company in your supply chain or in your industry.

[00:46:29] And so and it just feeds into a much stronger position that you have if and when you decide you might want to sell or you might want to entertain a discussion with a potential buyer. Well they also come from partners and possible customers as well.

[00:46:50] They look at what you've got and say well why don't you just join in with us. Yeah yeah yeah that's you know that's absolutely right. And you know it's a real case for you got to have a plan for what you might say if someone calls.

[00:47:11] You got to have a plan for when might be ideal for you to move on and that can be different for everybody.

[00:47:20] Having something to move on to is very important as we talked about not having a void but also today it's about how do I get more out of my business today with an investment in. Don't leave it till you know you start a discussion about selling.

[00:47:39] Do it now. Yeah it is and it's that isn't it. It's just the discussion.

[00:47:45] It's never about you know you don't want to do something that you're just not sure often you but you're never going to be sure unless you have that discussion to learn what are the things you could do to make the business more valuable.

[00:47:59] So when it does come time to sell that it actually is you know there is something more. Yeah just. I wanted to ask you if you have any particular. Small business.

[00:48:17] Champions or people that you know you take you read their blogs you read their books in anything that you know it's really been found out for you. There's a podcast called startups for the rest of us which I really like.

[00:48:36] It's the guy that made drip in the US which is an email automation platform. He's got 600 podcasts which actually really interesting ones to listen to otherwise linked in is my favorite. I find products that I like and then I find the founders that are.

[00:48:52] Very vocal and you know talk about other things other than just their business. Like smart leaders a good one then. Yeah guy from cake equities got some good stuff out there as well. Yeah yeah an employee ownership is that. That's right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

[00:49:11] Yeah but just finding time to actually absorb some. External perspective. Yes it's so important. Yeah as you've heard my dog is quite loud so he needs a walk every day on the beach so you know audio books and podcasts and the only way that I can consume information.

[00:49:34] I sadly haven't read a book for quite some time but I've got two young kids and they're busy sports social life. Yeah audio books and podcasts become you know maybe drown out a little bit of the border collie and then educate yourself. Why you go. Please been.

[00:50:00] Thank you so much for taking time to share what you've shared today Darren I've really enjoyed it and I'm no doubt a little resonate with other owners because it's difficult every day and there's some gold in there. Thank you for that. Thanks for having us on.

[00:50:26] Let's go to chat. What was the easiest place for people to make contact with you. Just get a go to our website. Daslab.global. DAZLAV.global Or you can email me at Darren at Daslab.global Either of those two. Or LinkedIn. Or LinkedIn.

[00:50:51] You just find me under Darren Clark. Yeah. All right well look go well and again thank you for your time on Small Business Banta podcast. Thank you very much.

[00:51:06] Well I hope you enjoyed that episode of Small Business Banta and I hope it was helpful in you getting the most out of your small business ownership to some extent.

[00:51:22] If you want to subscribe or listen back or to check out any of the resources or information we talked about today head over to the website smallbusinessbanta.com.au Or if you want search up Small Business Banta on your favourite podcast player.

[00:51:37] Don't forget to subscribe and if it was really helpful I'd love it if you told another business owner about the podcast. If you thought it was exceptionally helpful then how about you leave me a five star rating.

[00:51:49] If you think I can help personally please reach out to me Michael Kerr via the website. There's a new episode out every couple of weeks we'll catch up then.