Tamara Simon, Business Coach on systemising for small business success.

[00:00:00] Hi, it's Michael Kerr here, presenting Small Business Banter.

[00:00:11] Welcome to the Small Business Banter podcast. I'm Michael Kerr, your host, and I'm also the founder of Kerr Capital, where I work day-to-day with business owners.

[00:00:20] The Small Business Banter podcast is built just for business owners and will be especially relevant if you're an owner looking to sell, if you've been unexpectedly approached by a potential buyer, or if you're an aspiring owner about to buy a new business.

[00:00:36] There's a lot on the line personally and financially. It's stressful, it's emotional, and it's usually new territory.

[00:00:45] So to help, each episode of Small Business Banter is a discussion between me and another business owner or an experienced small business advisor.

[00:00:54] We talk about their experiences.

[00:00:58] So what you'll get is practical, real-life advice, different takes on everyday problems, and a renewed confidence to tackle your own business challenges.

[00:01:30] Welcome into episode 148 of Small Business Banter, the podcast. Tamara Simon is my guest today. Lovely to have you on the podcast, Tamara.

[00:01:42] Thanks so much for having me, Michael. Appreciate being here.

[00:01:44] Looking forward to our discussion. Bob the Builder for Small Business is kind of your tagline.

[00:01:50] You are a small business coach and an expert in helping owners navigate complexity and help them build systems.

[00:01:58] But do you want to talk a little bit about Tamara Simon and the work you do?

[00:02:02] Sure. Yeah, no worries.

[00:02:04] So as you said, I'm the speaker, author, and coach, affectionately known as the Bob the Builder for Small Business.

[00:02:10] You know, can she fix it? Yes, she can. And that's, you know, mainly because I'm a problem solver.

[00:02:17] And so I help small business owners navigate the many challenges that come into their businesses.

[00:02:23] So we want to solve those frustrating problems, simplify overwhelming systems, but also support them in times of confusion and uncertainty.

[00:02:33] That's sort of what I do. But it's really about making sure my mission is to make sure that every owner has a simple, profitable business they actually love.

[00:02:43] And the actually is important because there's times when we feel chained to them.

[00:02:47] You know, there's times we want to go, you know, too much.

[00:02:49] I'll just go and get a job. It's got to be easier.

[00:02:52] So, yeah, it's helping owners through that because they're really brave people, as you know.

[00:02:57] You know, we make this brave, silly, fun, ridiculous, you know, step that we decide to go out onto own and run our own business.

[00:03:05] But we need help with that.

[00:03:07] Yeah, you wouldn't be in small business if you haven't had some moments like that.

[00:03:12] No, no. I mean, they tell us that success is like this and we all know that it's very much the jagged line.

[00:03:17] You know, I always say that my journey is like the snakes and ladders board game.

[00:03:22] Go up to go down and the snakes come in and all of that sort of stuff.

[00:03:25] So, you know, it certainly is ups and downs.

[00:03:30] But it's very rewarding when we've got what we need and doing what we love.

[00:03:35] It sure is.

[00:03:36] And that transition from it's all chaotic, scattered gun all over the shop to some sense of order

[00:03:43] and an underlying financial viability.

[00:03:47] It's really it's incredible to be involved with the business owner and a team to see a business get to that stage.

[00:03:57] Absolutely.

[00:03:58] You've probably seen and spoken to people.

[00:04:00] In my book, I talk about that a lot of owners have actually got expensive hobbies rather than profitable businesses, you know.

[00:04:06] And so all this hard work is just not giving reward and that's where we need to help them.

[00:04:11] But there's a lot of hope and expectation, I think, early days in most small businesses.

[00:04:18] And that sustains you, that energy and vision and sustains you for so long.

[00:04:26] And then reality hits.

[00:04:28] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:29] And the danger, I guess, is that you stay in that pattern of it's what it is.

[00:04:34] And that's obviously what you do a lot of work on.

[00:04:38] Yes.

[00:04:38] Before we dig into what you do now, your background was out of small business, I think.

[00:04:45] And you came into small business with a very, very strong understanding of systems and processes.

[00:04:51] Do you want to talk just to set that scene for us?

[00:04:54] Yeah, sure.

[00:04:55] So in my employment life, so, you know, went to uni, did business management, came out of that and went,

[00:05:01] well, I don't think I'm a business manager.

[00:05:02] So what am I?

[00:05:04] And got some jobs in government.

[00:05:07] But I discovered through uni that I was really good at training, which doesn't surprise me because I was always, you know, good at speaking presentations.

[00:05:14] I've been doing that most of my life.

[00:05:16] So I went back to uni to do postgrad to gain those training qualifications because at that stage,

[00:05:22] I didn't know about TAFE and the whole world of vocational education training.

[00:05:26] And then was looking for opportunities to get into that.

[00:05:29] And just by chance, that got me into the world of vocational education training.

[00:05:35] And I've been in that for nearly 30 years now as sort of one niche area, both doing policy work, auditing them, helping them understand compliance and a whole range of things.

[00:05:46] But I've always been the systems person.

[00:05:48] You know, I'm the person at school that everyone came to get their work checked.

[00:05:52] You know, I've always created checklists.

[00:05:54] Okay, let's start here and go through step by step.

[00:05:57] Yeah, that's exactly right.

[00:05:58] You know, I'm very much a checklist girl.

[00:06:00] But I've always, through my employment, just tried to make the organisation better and to fill the gaps.

[00:06:06] Years ago, I worked on a front counter, which no one ever wanted to do.

[00:06:10] And so when there wasn't customers, I wrote the scripts so that when someone relieved me at lunch, you know, there was consistency and people were easily able to pick up what needed to be done.

[00:06:20] And that's just what I do.

[00:06:22] Because I think it's so important to make sure that people are trained in what they do.

[00:06:26] Can make life easier when someone, you know, else comes into that role, even just for a short time.

[00:06:31] But we know that systems, you know, they're the foundations of everything.

[00:06:35] And as much as people go, I don't like them, they actually crave them, you know, as long as they're simple.

[00:06:40] So yeah, my work life's been really diverse, which gives me lots of depth and breadth, I suppose, from an experience point of view.

[00:06:47] And, you know, I fell into becoming a small business owner because someone said, hey, how about you want to help us do some training for some people?

[00:06:57] And so I quit the CEO job.

[00:06:59] I was looking for a new challenge.

[00:07:00] And overnight, you become a small business owner as a consultant and a trainer and go, okay.

[00:07:06] And 22 years later, I'm still here.

[00:07:08] Yeah, so it was serendipitous or, yeah, somebody tapped you on the shoulder.

[00:07:14] You were at the right time for you to think about change and then you launch into the small business area.

[00:07:21] Are there any small businesses that couldn't benefit from better systems?

[00:07:28] Oh, no, no.

[00:07:30] I mean, we know that's what people want, need, you know.

[00:07:33] I mean, generally people say, no, I need them tomorrow, but I'll do them when I'm busy, you know, less busy or time and stuff.

[00:07:40] But, you know, I believe there's a system in everything.

[00:07:42] You've just got to find it.

[00:07:44] You know, so, you know, that's not just checklists and policies and that.

[00:07:48] That's about, well, you know, how does someone answer the phone?

[00:07:51] That's a system.

[00:07:52] You know, how do you decide your calendar or manage your time?

[00:07:56] And all of those are systems.

[00:07:58] So, I think we get caught up a bit into the documentation side of things but forget there's all these other things that are all needed as part of a success.

[00:08:09] Yeah, it can sound – I'm totally with you.

[00:08:12] I've never seen a business that doesn't – even the really highly creative businesses still need a process for being creative.

[00:08:20] So, I'm with you there and it's the ongoing query for me is, you know, why small business owners don't take that leap to make their business more systematic, structured, repeatable.

[00:08:37] So, what's your take on that?

[00:08:39] Is it a personal thing?

[00:08:40] Is it a time thing?

[00:08:41] Is it a – what is it?

[00:08:43] Oh, look, I think initially it's mainly a time thing, right?

[00:08:46] Because what happens in our small business journey is that we make this decision and so all we're doing is running to try and, you know, bring clients and customers into the door.

[00:08:56] So, that's all we're doing because we just need to get money in to, you know, keep the lights on and the house and all of those type of things.

[00:09:04] But then what happens is we get a bit of growth.

[00:09:06] You know, life starts to get a little bit easier for us because clients are coming to us rather than us trying to have to find them all the time.

[00:09:13] So, we get into like this growth bit and then we find, hang on, you know, the team's grown from myself and maybe one other person to two, three, five people.

[00:09:24] And what happens is when we're in that midst of growth, which is frenetic for a lot of businesses, things that used to work with yourself or one or two people because it was just in your head no longer work with a team, right?

[00:09:37] And that's when the wheels start to fall off because the owner says to me, well, why isn't this working?

[00:09:42] I don't understand.

[00:09:43] The team, you know, isn't in harmony anymore and they used to be.

[00:09:47] And I said, yeah, because all the knowledge now is in everyone's heads or we've created habits.

[00:09:52] You know, this person does it like this and you've gotten bigger.

[00:09:55] So, you're actually quite detached from what's actually happening in your business where you used to know every part of it.

[00:10:02] So, I think initially it's a time thing but also it's understanding that, you know, I have so many people and owners say, oh, Tamara, you know, I told my staff just to do it as they go.

[00:10:15] Can I tell you right now, that does not work.

[00:10:18] And the reason for that, there's two reasons.

[00:10:21] The first is that when you're doing a task, whether it's you or your team, right, you just do it by habit, right?

[00:10:27] So, maybe you're doing an invoice or, you know, whatever it might be.

[00:10:31] You just do it by habit, right?

[00:10:33] And if I say to you, well, what did you do?

[00:10:36] The usual answer I get is I actually don't know because we've just done it by habit.

[00:10:41] We don't even think about it.

[00:10:42] So, you don't even think about whether it's the most efficient way to do it or, you know, is there a better way?

[00:10:50] Yeah.

[00:10:50] You just, I'm just doing it.

[00:10:51] To get the job done.

[00:10:52] That's right.

[00:10:53] I'm just doing the task.

[00:10:54] So, we've got pressure, you know, from ourselves and owners and that to actually get the task done, right?

[00:11:01] So, unless you actually give staff and yourself time blocked away to only do that, they won't happen,

[00:11:11] which is why I say to people, you need to get me in or someone else to actually help you.

[00:11:16] McDonald's didn't write their own, you know, procedures and stuff like that.

[00:11:20] They worked, well, they did, but they worked through it and took time aside, you know,

[00:11:24] if you've seen the movie, the basketball scene of, you know, how they were trying to get most efficient.

[00:11:29] So, we need to give people time to actually have someone asking the questions.

[00:11:36] So, now what do you do?

[00:11:37] So, now what do you do?

[00:11:38] Oh, do you have a checklist for that?

[00:11:39] No, because once you actually work out how someone does it now, you can then look to say,

[00:11:45] well, how come, is there duplication?

[00:11:47] And there probably is.

[00:11:48] And how can we do it simpler?

[00:11:50] But if you say to yourself or your team, oh, just do it as you go, it just will not happen

[00:11:55] because the time pressure is too much and you're not getting what you actually need.

[00:12:00] So, you've got to do.

[00:12:01] And so, therefore, owners say, well, I don't have time for them to do that.

[00:12:04] I go, yeah, but that actually means that you're okay spending time fixing mistakes, troubleshooting,

[00:12:10] dealing with conflict, all of that because that's what we do.

[00:12:13] You know, unless we resolve it properly, we just band-aid, but we say we don't have time.

[00:12:20] Well, we do, but we're putting time into all of that.

[00:12:23] So, there is time we're just choosing the wrong thing.

[00:12:25] If you're going through a period of growth or you've got other distractions that can mask the issue.

[00:12:31] Yeah.

[00:12:31] And the issue may not be really visible, which is…

[00:12:36] Correct.

[00:12:36] So, I think that role that you play of going in and saying…

[00:12:42] So, it's got to start with the owner, doesn't it?

[00:12:43] The owner has got to say, I've had enough or I can see a different way.

[00:12:47] Where I see it a lot is when owners coming up to selling a business…

[00:12:52] Oh, yeah.

[00:12:54] …almost the first question for a buyer is what happens…

[00:12:57] Whether they ask it directly or not doesn't matter.

[00:13:00] Yes.

[00:13:00] But they're thinking if that owner leaves after a month, what happens to the business?

[00:13:06] Yep.

[00:13:06] Okay.

[00:13:06] We've got two ways to mitigate that.

[00:13:09] The owner can hang around a bit longer.

[00:13:11] But if you have systems and processes, it's a really big tick.

[00:13:17] So, the owners don't have time.

[00:13:19] So, are you expert in saying to owners, look, this is going to bite you on the backside at some point.

[00:13:26] So, let's carve out a bit of time and a bit of budget now.

[00:13:30] Is that how you go about it?

[00:13:31] Yeah.

[00:13:32] Look, generally, some of it is.

[00:13:36] We have to find the time first.

[00:13:38] Because we all know that we need to be profitable.

[00:13:42] We need to understand our ideal client.

[00:13:44] We need to put systems into place.

[00:13:45] But if the owner itself has not got time, because that's what they tell me.

[00:13:50] And I know they don't.

[00:13:51] We all don't.

[00:13:52] But that's the problem I've got to solve first.

[00:13:55] So, I've got to look at how they're actually spending their day.

[00:13:58] Are they starting their day with emails, which is not how they should start?

[00:14:01] Where are those little distractions coming through?

[00:14:04] And let's fix that a little bit first and just find some bits.

[00:14:08] My objective is to find 15 minutes a day initially.

[00:14:13] And people go, but that's nothing tomorrow.

[00:14:15] I go, yeah.

[00:14:15] But if my math's right, that's an hour and a quarter a week you weren't doing writing one process.

[00:14:22] Now, maybe it's going to take longer than that or whatever.

[00:14:25] But we've progressed so far.

[00:14:28] You know, I was the person writing kits with Microsoft Word where you do a screenshot and you put it into a Word template and you do arrows.

[00:14:34] I mean, you can just do a video now of so much of, you know, how they use email or how they use your database or videos are the best way to do it, right?

[00:14:45] And you don't have to get it right.

[00:14:47] It's just get it down because something is better than nothing because otherwise it walks out the door if your staff leave.

[00:14:54] If something happens to you health-wise or personally or whatever, you're staffed.

[00:14:59] But the reality is, and you would know from the sale point of view, you know, if you want to grow, you need systems.

[00:15:05] Simple as that.

[00:15:06] Knowledge can't stay in someone's head.

[00:15:07] But if you want a better valuation, the systems do that for you as part of that, right?

[00:15:14] It adds to the multiple, you know, because, you know, a chaotic unstructured business can be making the same amount of money as a structured business, but you're going to get more for the structured business.

[00:15:28] It just gives buyers more comfort.

[00:15:30] And, you know, the payoff for an owner is really if they do it well, there's a payoff now because your system – sorry, your business gets more efficient.

[00:15:38] Correct.

[00:15:39] And presumably that parlays into, if not more profit, more time for the owner to think about some of the more important issues.

[00:15:47] But certainly later it does translate to a higher potential valuation when you sell, which may or may not be – you know, it doesn't have to be the objective of systemizing your business, by the way, does it?

[00:15:59] We want every owner to make their business – what was your terminology?

[00:16:04] A less expensive hobby or a less dysfunctional workplace?

[00:16:08] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:08] That's exactly right.

[00:16:12] Hi there.

[00:16:13] It's just a quick interruption to the podcast and it's a message from Kerr Capital, a supporter of the podcast.

[00:16:20] If you're a business owner thinking about selling and you're unsure about what you should do, well, the worst thing you can do is jump straight into an unprepared business sale.

[00:16:29] Cross your fingers and hope for the best.

[00:16:32] If you want to take control, get a sense of what your business is really worth and a plan to make it more sellable, then head over onto the Kerr Capital website.

[00:16:41] Check out the value and sellability diagnostic.

[00:16:45] If it piques your interest, contact me, Michael Kerr, or book one of the free 45-minute diagnostic calls.

[00:16:52] Now let's head back to the podcast.

[00:16:57] That's the thing with systems sometimes, right?

[00:16:59] Because I'm really honest with owners and staff about them as well.

[00:17:02] If we're really going to be looking at them, the reality is in the beginning, it is two steps forward, eight steps back because we're just trying to tweak and get the stuff out and take those little bits.

[00:17:15] But when I talk to be at owners or particularly staff about what's the biggest frustration, the answer is I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing tomorrow.

[00:17:24] I just want some clarity.

[00:17:26] One minute I'm doing this, then they're telling me I'm doing that.

[00:17:28] The goalposts change every day.

[00:17:30] I just want to know how I'm supposed to do my job.

[00:17:33] I'm doing the best I can.

[00:17:34] And owners have the best intentions, right?

[00:17:36] No small business owners, you know, very few that are really trying to sabotage or create conflict and that.

[00:17:42] It's just because we're so busy.

[00:17:44] And probably most business owners would have an area of real strength that they're particularly good at.

[00:17:52] And it's hard.

[00:17:53] I think it's hard to understand why others aren't.

[00:17:56] So it might be in marketing.

[00:17:57] It might be in manufacturing.

[00:17:58] But yeah, so the staff, that plea from a staff just, it's kind of, it's where the opportunities are.

[00:18:08] If you can get more from your staff through better systems or better understanding or organisational design, it's a hell of a boost to your business success.

[00:18:20] Well, it is, right?

[00:18:21] So my drive when I'm looking at businesses is I want everyone, including the owner, to work in their sweet spot 80% of every single day.

[00:18:32] And what I mean by that is doing the work that they love and they're really good at.

[00:18:36] Because if we can get that for both the owner, and that may be doing no work in the business, right?

[00:18:42] There are some owners where I go, yeah, you really need someone else to run the business, right?

[00:18:46] Let's get you doing the fun stuff.

[00:18:49] And we know in Michael Gerber's book, The E-Myth, he talks about the technician, right?

[00:18:53] In my book, I say, I think most small business owners are not the entrepreneur that always wanted a business.

[00:18:59] They're people like me, right?

[00:19:01] We're reluctant small business owners who are good at something.

[00:19:04] And then we become this owner and we grow and then go, crikey, I'm not good at marketing.

[00:19:09] I'm not good at sales.

[00:19:10] Maybe it's finance, whatever it is.

[00:19:12] But we've been told this horrible myth that we're supposed to know everything and be good at everything.

[00:19:19] And it's just fallacy, right?

[00:19:21] Yeah, it creates a whole lot of unhealthy expectations from everybody else looking in, from staff looking up or across, depending on how you designed your organisation.

[00:19:33] Yeah.

[00:19:34] So we need to give the gift of asking for help is okay.

[00:19:45] Okay.

[00:19:46] Excuse me.

[00:19:47] What are the experts that you get in?

[00:19:48] The plumbers and the electricians.

[00:19:50] And it's not just one person who's doing it.

[00:19:53] But once we can get everyone working in their sweet spot, then they can cope with the 20% of the work that is in that role, but they really don't like doing.

[00:20:03] But all the other stuff is good.

[00:20:05] And productivity and harmony and all those things fall off it.

[00:20:10] But you only get that if, A, you know what people love to do and are good at.

[00:20:14] And then you make sure that those functions and tasks sit within the business and you document the simple ways to do that.

[00:20:22] Then it starts to hum.

[00:20:23] Then it's really cool.

[00:20:24] I think that, you know, if that was 80, 20, do the stuff you're really good at.

[00:20:30] But you've got to have a budget for stuff that only you as an owner are going to do.

[00:20:39] So there might be a 20%.

[00:20:41] And you get a reward for doing that, which is you can spend more, you know, maybe you can change the ratio or spend more time on the stuff you really like.

[00:20:50] But there are things that ultimately will not change, will not get done.

[00:20:55] And it's up to the owner.

[00:20:56] And so, yeah, having someone like you come in and be really honest and say, well, these are the things that are falling down.

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:04] And you can't, like for a period of time, you can't outsource that.

[00:21:07] You've just got to bite the bullet and get in there and work out how it's done.

[00:21:12] You won't like it, but you'll get a reward.

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:16] And so you've got to look at what those quick wins can be for both the owner and the staff.

[00:21:21] You know, so my question is always, if I had a magic wand and could just fix one thing, what would it be?

[00:21:26] And I can generally get those immediately because then people go, okay, I'm on board on the train because maybe they've been told, you know, for many years, oh, we're going to get help.

[00:21:36] Things are going to change and staff get to a point of going, it's just like talking to a brick wall.

[00:21:41] So we've got to move those things, you know, as part of that process.

[00:21:45] But it's this funny thing that people resist systems so much, but then they say, but I want clarity.

[00:21:52] And I go, yeah, that's how you get it.

[00:21:54] Like, you know, so you've got to make it fun.

[00:21:57] You've got to, as you said, give those rewards, show them some wins, but be listening to people as part of that.

[00:22:04] And one of the first things I see that owners will outsource is their finances, right?

[00:22:08] Get a bookkeeper in because usually they're not good at that, which is great.

[00:22:12] But I say, I said, do you know your numbers?

[00:22:14] No, that's why I have a bookkeeper accountant.

[00:22:16] Yeah, no, no, no.

[00:22:18] So you've got to delegate responsibility, but don't abdicate it.

[00:22:22] Yeah, and you've got to use the information that's available.

[00:22:27] And that's the shock you might need.

[00:22:31] In my last newsletter, I wrote about the power of cloud accounting packages.

[00:22:38] Yep.

[00:22:38] And whether you do it yourself or outsource, get it done and then actually use the numbers.

[00:22:45] Yes.

[00:22:45] And you can do so much to cut and dice your business.

[00:22:50] But I think that's one of the big shocks an owner will get is that it's not really as profitable as I want.

[00:22:58] And your tax returns don't tell the story.

[00:23:02] So it's that management accounting.

[00:23:03] Yeah, and because, Michael, they get caught up in the turnover hype.

[00:23:07] You know, I'm sure you've spoken to the business.

[00:23:09] Oh, we're doing really well tomorrow.

[00:23:11] 500K turnover, million dollar turnover.

[00:23:13] What's your biggest issue?

[00:23:14] Cash flow.

[00:23:15] Because they haven't got the numbers properly to run the business or it's not profitable.

[00:23:21] So don't get caught.

[00:23:23] Turnover is great, but don't get caught up in it.

[00:23:26] You know.

[00:23:27] Yeah, it's so true.

[00:23:29] And it is an easy fix.

[00:23:32] It's engage a bookkeeper who's good at Xero or Myob or whatever.

[00:23:39] But as you say, don't abdicate.

[00:23:42] Yep.

[00:23:42] Look forward to getting asked for those reports monthly.

[00:23:45] Have a look at them and start asking yourself or your advisors the questions about what's going on in the business.

[00:23:51] I think the other shock that comes to owners, if they're kind of aware of it, is just the amount of hours they put into their business.

[00:24:02] And it can become a habit to say, I've got to work 8 till 10 or whatever it is.

[00:24:09] Yep.

[00:24:10] And you run out of puff at some point.

[00:24:12] So that's another massively important KPI to reduce those hours if they're impossible.

[00:24:20] And also in your schedule, have some time out of the business.

[00:24:25] Very much so.

[00:24:25] And that's where the payoff can be.

[00:24:27] If you've got some staff that are efficient, productive, know what they're doing, and you can start to take a little bit longer break and the business doesn't break.

[00:24:39] Well, that's time and money.

[00:24:43] Well, that's and I think to me, we've bought into this.

[00:24:47] I've got to be on 24-7 and available.

[00:24:50] That is just nonsense, right?

[00:24:52] So, you know, I don't buy into that at all.

[00:24:54] You know, the world will not end if I don't post on social media or get back to an email immediately.

[00:25:00] And we've got to break this cycle because we've bought into it too much.

[00:25:03] You and I would remember the days when the mail only came into the office twice a day and the world didn't end.

[00:25:10] You know, so I think we've got to get back to some of that thinking that people are not just waiting for me to reply to email or give them phone.

[00:25:18] They're busy doing their stuff as well.

[00:25:20] You know, I have obviously good customer service standards, but a day is okay.

[00:25:25] Like if I'm presenting all day, I can't get back to people until probably, you know, the next day and things like that.

[00:25:31] So it's one of the things I absolutely talk to owners about, about what hours they're doing and help them understand that because I believe there's a price for everything.

[00:25:41] We've just got to choose whether we accept that.

[00:25:43] So if we say yes to a job and we know that's going to mean, for example, much longer hours, time away from family, miss the kids, sporting and all that, you've accepted the price because you've said yes.

[00:25:55] So, you know, I usually use the hare and tortoise analogy.

[00:25:58] So we're usually running like the hare so often, but we have to be the tortoise and we have to stop, even if that's just to say to a client, look, I just need to check my diary.

[00:26:08] Just give me five minutes and I'll give you a call back.

[00:26:11] We need to buy that time.

[00:26:13] And we may still say yes, but that means we've made a choice to accept the price of that.

[00:26:19] More of a conscious yes.

[00:26:20] Conscious choice.

[00:26:21] We do.

[00:26:21] We all make trade-offs every day.

[00:26:24] It's a privileged position to be in when an owner says to you or me or whoever, their trusted advisor.

[00:26:31] Yes.

[00:26:33] What's going on here or how can I make this better?

[00:26:35] Because I haven't seen too many businesses that couldn't be improved.

[00:26:41] You would be the same.

[00:26:42] But the hard nut to crack is often the owner and their sense of what am I in this for or running on expectations about what I should deliver to the shareholders being their family.

[00:27:00] So there's a lot of those businesses run by very dominant owners.

[00:27:06] They're not necessarily trying to be dominant.

[00:27:08] They just are critically important.

[00:27:10] And this is why we're chatting about how to wean off yourself and have some structure and systems in your business so that you get some reward for the investment.

[00:27:22] And you have to understand that, right?

[00:27:24] So I had two clients.

[00:27:26] One was in building design and one was also in leasing of big, heavy equipment.

[00:27:32] So the first one I was called in because I'd been working with lots of building designers and so they contacted me that way because I understood the business.

[00:27:40] And I was entrenched in that business for probably nearly 12 months working with every staff member to document all their knowledge and all of those things, you know.

[00:27:49] And those creative people are really interesting because they go, I don't need to document anything.

[00:27:54] And that's a whole different story.

[00:27:56] But it was interesting that I'd done all the change management because systems are just change.

[00:28:01] It's all they are.

[00:28:02] Yeah.

[00:28:03] But just, sorry, just be, so what was the trigger for that owner to give you a call and then to basically open up and say?

[00:28:11] Yeah.

[00:28:12] So the trigger initially was he was at one of their local chapter meetings and someone said, oh, you know, Tamara's been helping us here and blah, blah, blah.

[00:28:22] And so he got me in initially and, you know, had quite a big team and stuff and was, you know, had some staff issues and whatever.

[00:28:30] I said, well, that's, you know, what's documented and how does it work?

[00:28:33] He goes, yeah, we don't have a lot of that.

[00:28:34] I said, well, I can help you with that.

[00:28:35] So that's how I got, you know, very entrenched in that business.

[00:28:38] But did all the change management with himself and also with the staff and got this beautiful, you know, and lots of different moving pieces and things like that.

[00:28:50] Understood, you know, got differences in terms of, you know, variations where clients or, you know, things went outside the room.

[00:28:56] All this stuff, right?

[00:28:57] Beautiful.

[00:28:58] Got to a point staff are going, this is fair.

[00:29:01] Like we know what we've got to do.

[00:29:02] There was clarity about roles because people were doing things and he'd go, why are they doing that?

[00:29:06] I'm going, well, let's fix that.

[00:29:08] So I did all of that.

[00:29:10] Beautiful.

[00:29:10] Everyone's humming.

[00:29:11] I came in probably a couple of weeks later and I could sense that something was amiss.

[00:29:17] And so I spoke to his PA and she said, oh, I need to tell you tomorrow this isn't working anymore and everyone's really upset.

[00:29:25] And I said, why?

[00:29:26] I said, because the owner has jumped in and gone, jumped about seven processes and said, oh, I just need you to do this really quickly because this is my mate and blah, blah, blah.

[00:29:35] And I'm gone.

[00:29:37] Had the conversation with the owner and his view at that time was, well, it's my business tomorrow.

[00:29:43] I said, look, it is.

[00:29:44] No question.

[00:29:45] I said, but this is what's happening as a result of you jumping all things.

[00:29:50] Staff are now going, but this is what used to happen and things didn't work and mistakes and whatever.

[00:29:56] You know, I'm very honest.

[00:29:57] I will not take money from someone if, you know, that is not a working relationship.

[00:30:01] And it was basically that because I was due to stay with him for another six months.

[00:30:06] And I said, look, I said, I know what I've built.

[00:30:09] Everyone's happy.

[00:30:09] You were happy and all that.

[00:30:11] I said, but this is about behavioural change with yourself and your leadership.

[00:30:15] I'd love to help and coach you.

[00:30:17] That's really the choice.

[00:30:18] So you have a think about that.

[00:30:20] But if you're going to continue doing this, then there's nothing more I can do at this point in time.

[00:30:26] And I finished that job, unfortunately, and the staff were devastated because I knew exactly what would happen.

[00:30:33] You know, so that's where those changes are versus the other business where the staff saw me present at a chamber meeting and they said, oh, my God, we need you.

[00:30:42] And I came in under the guise with the staff and then got to know the owner and stuff and helped a little bit.

[00:30:50] But, again, an owner that didn't want to be an owner, just wanted to have his staff run it, but had this perception that he had to be in the office every day otherwise.

[00:30:59] And I'm going, no, you don't.

[00:31:02] No, that's okay.

[00:31:03] No one's thinking that.

[00:31:03] So it's all these things that you've got to work with owners.

[00:31:06] But at the end of the day, it's their business.

[00:31:08] It's their choice.

[00:31:09] But we have to be open to those particular things.

[00:31:13] Otherwise, unfortunately, consequences will occur and that's choice.

[00:31:17] Yeah.

[00:31:18] And that's one of the primary things when you're in business as a owner.

[00:31:23] Why are you in business?

[00:31:24] And we've talked a lot about already how expectations can be heightened and a lot of pressure.

[00:31:32] But fundamentally, to get back to why are you in business?

[00:31:35] And what does a business need to look like to deliver whatever your mix of financial and non-financial objectives are?

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:46] And I'm sure you would see it, Mike, a lot with family businesses.

[00:31:49] You know, they're interesting conversations, aren't they?

[00:31:52] To, you know, where the sons and daughters have been there and they feel it's not really them, but they feel it for obligation and all these things.

[00:32:00] You know, they're really challenging, you know, businesses.

[00:32:03] They are.

[00:32:04] And it's particularly complex in family because there are all these understandings unspoken and somebody sparking a conversation, a really open.

[00:32:16] And it's hard to, you know, to do that.

[00:32:20] But when it's done, it can be quite overwhelming for the parties involved, emotional.

[00:32:27] Yes.

[00:32:27] Certainly have seen that and exclamations of, well, you should have told me that 20 years ago or I just didn't know that.

[00:32:35] That's right.

[00:32:36] And it's kind of heartwarming when they, you know, there is that sense of, well, you know, we might have put some, wasted some time.

[00:32:45] And if you've got staff that actually do want to do a good job, but want to be involved, want to be productive and do something with a purpose.

[00:32:54] And that's tricky as well because if you're that kind of owner you just described, which is it's my business.

[00:33:02] Well, it's not really.

[00:33:04] You're so dependent.

[00:33:05] Correct.

[00:33:06] And the cost will be turnover of staff or lost clients.

[00:33:09] But anyway, they can be in business for that reason and it's narcissistic or whatever.

[00:33:14] So that's, you know, yeah, move on to the next one.

[00:33:17] Yeah.

[00:33:17] The good staff will walk as part of that because everyone reaches a tipping point of where that respect and roles and all those type of things.

[00:33:26] Yeah.

[00:33:27] Do you just want to talk about your methodology briefly and the book?

[00:33:32] I mean, you live and breathe systems and processes and you mentioned Michael Gerber, one of the great books written about this stuff.

[00:33:44] But what's your methodology and talk a little bit about the book?

[00:33:49] Yep.

[00:33:50] So the book that I've written is The Five Little Business Peaks and it uses the analogy of the fairy tale of the three little pigs because that's how we build our businesses from straw to stick to brick.

[00:34:02] But when I was writing the book, I realised there was two other houses.

[00:34:05] There's the reno and then there's the rundown.

[00:34:07] And there's all those pesky wolves that keep puffing and puffing at our doors as part of that.

[00:34:14] But it's an analogy that everyone gets.

[00:34:17] And usually whether I'm talking with someone or in audiences, there's a, oh, I thought I was reno because I'm growing, but I'm realising I don't have those strong foundations.

[00:34:27] So I've got to change that.

[00:34:28] Or I am a bit run down personally and the business and things like that.

[00:34:33] But there's always strategies to get back to it.

[00:34:37] But for most people, even if the dollars are looking good, generally those bricks, you know, they're not as solid as they sort of think as part of that.

[00:34:46] So my job really is from a coaching perspective, but also from a speaking perspective, is really just to help owners understand what's working, what's wrong and why, and give them strategies to look at better ways to doing things.

[00:35:04] And I use what I call my five foundation bricks.

[00:35:07] All right.

[00:35:08] So the first is about you and it's about helping owners embrace their role as the small business owner and everything that that entails.

[00:35:16] The second is really looking at productivity, which is helping them focus their time.

[00:35:22] Because again, once they step up, we've got to fix the time because none of the other stuff matters if we can't rejig that because we've all got the same amount of time, but we've got to focus it, focus it differently as part of that.

[00:35:33] The third is really around that profitability, right?

[00:35:37] Because if we've got an expensive hobby, we don't want that.

[00:35:39] So we've got to look at how we actually can grow the business as part of that.

[00:35:44] And that's a lot around initially, well, who's your ideal customer?

[00:35:48] Because it's not everyone.

[00:35:49] Even though we can help everyone, our ideal customer is not that.

[00:35:53] We then look at, then we're looking at the people.

[00:35:58] The fourth brick is people.

[00:35:59] So whether that's, even if you're, you know, an owner like me by myself, who are the people that you need to guide?

[00:36:05] Who are the people that you need in the team?

[00:36:07] You know, I have a graphic designer, I have a business coach.

[00:36:09] I have other people that can help me as part of that.

[00:36:13] And if you've got a team, how can you guide your people?

[00:36:16] All right.

[00:36:17] So I believe that because I love my sport, I believe every owner is the coach of their team.

[00:36:21] You know, providing the strategy and providing the systems, which is the game plan of how people can actually do that.

[00:36:28] And then the fifth brick is about performance.

[00:36:30] You know, so how are we actually maintaining that?

[00:36:34] How are we scaling?

[00:36:35] How are we putting those systems in place?

[00:36:36] And how are we sustaining that as part of it?

[00:36:39] So it's helping people understand that.

[00:36:42] And my coaching sessions, I make sure that I'm the sounding board.

[00:36:45] Because I want them downloading to me the frustrations and everything versus taking that home.

[00:36:51] Because, you know, family and friends support us well.

[00:36:54] But unless you're talking with a business person, they don't quite get it.

[00:36:57] And that can cause conflict.

[00:36:59] Yeah, it can be incredibly lonely.

[00:37:02] And either those conversations, you just don't have them because you don't feel like you can.

[00:37:08] Or there's maybe heartfelt, well-intended advice coming back or support may or may not help you.

[00:37:19] So, yeah, the role of external coaches who can understand what you're going through, bring some domain expertise.

[00:37:30] So important.

[00:37:31] Yeah, it is.

[00:37:32] And we're not emotionally invested.

[00:37:33] So we can see and we can provide that support.

[00:37:37] But also, you know, I pull my tough love card when I need to because that's important as well.

[00:37:44] Well, you know, saying no to a client yourself.

[00:37:47] Like you're living, breathing what you're talking about.

[00:37:50] Yes.

[00:37:51] And this idea of perpetual chasing growth, 10x this, 10x that.

[00:37:58] Can I really happily say that how many x's you want is up to you.

[00:38:03] Correct.

[00:38:04] And if you want 1.25 because and it's a few tweaks to get you there, that's awesome.

[00:38:10] And that's your bit.

[00:38:12] If you want 10x, fantastic.

[00:38:14] Yeah.

[00:38:14] You know, you'll need systems and structures.

[00:38:17] Yeah.

[00:38:17] I mean, yeah, I don't want an empire.

[00:38:20] I don't want to be the entrepreneur.

[00:38:21] I don't want to be the next Branson or whatever.

[00:38:23] But we've got to use entrepreneurial thinking.

[00:38:27] Sorry, I'm with you.

[00:38:28] Don't mind what the profit is.

[00:38:29] Don't mind what your dreams are.

[00:38:32] But let's make sure that they stretch you and not stress you.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:36] But let's use entrepreneurial thinking as part of that.

[00:38:39] Do you, this is a bit off cue, but do you think the term entrepreneur is a bit of a misfit for a lot of business owners?

[00:38:46] Do you think they see themselves as, I'm not an entrepreneur.

[00:38:50] I'm an owner.

[00:38:51] Yeah.

[00:38:53] Yeah.

[00:38:53] I profess and continue to say, I want small business owners to say, that's my badge of honor.

[00:39:00] I'm proud to be a small business owner.

[00:39:02] So I think there's too much of this entrepreneur.

[00:39:05] So that's why I switch it and go, I want small business owners to be proud to be that, but apply entrepreneurial thinking into what they do.

[00:39:15] Now, I like that.

[00:39:16] And there's a lot to be learned from incredibly successful entrepreneurs.

[00:39:20] Yeah.

[00:39:21] But don't believe everything you hear.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:24] Absolutely.

[00:39:24] And don't chase everything just because it's growth.

[00:39:28] That's wearing it loud and proud.

[00:39:30] Absolutely.

[00:39:31] Because we're brave people.

[00:39:33] We forget that.

[00:39:34] You know, we're brave people that took this amazing step to leave a job to do this thing that hopefully we love, that we're good at, and it's providing the money that we want and all those type of things.

[00:39:46] But we're brave people.

[00:39:47] Not everyone can do this gig.

[00:39:48] No, it's that sort of the work you're doing when you're going in and talking to employees.

[00:39:54] I often think about that gap.

[00:39:59] It's really wide in some organizations and narrows in others where the employees have no sense of what it's like to be an owner, no interest in being an owner.

[00:40:11] And that's fine.

[00:40:12] But there are other organizations where you see employees who are where there's an understanding both ways that there's work to be done.

[00:40:24] You obviously do it with the employees.

[00:40:25] In one case, you said the employees actually initiated you coming in as one of the case studies you talked about.

[00:40:31] And that's a culture that's pretty cool because it's in their interest, but it's also in the owners.

[00:40:39] Whether they – and maybe the owner's given them the license to go along to that networking event for that very reason.

[00:40:45] Who knows?

[00:40:46] I remember years ago I had an owner say to me, Tamara, I just don't get it.

[00:40:49] Like why aren't my employees as invested in my business as I – I just don't get it.

[00:40:55] I said, firstly, you've got great employees.

[00:40:57] They're doing really well.

[00:40:58] I said, but of course they're not.

[00:41:00] It's not their business.

[00:41:01] It's yours.

[00:41:03] So you can work all the stupid hours and do all those type of things,

[00:41:06] but that shouldn't be translated to them as long as they're doing the job you want them to do

[00:41:11] and doing it well within normal working hours because we need to get back to that.

[00:41:16] That's the ideal of having staff.

[00:41:19] You'll always have some people that are just those natural leaders and will help you and go.

[00:41:24] But there's a lot to be said also for the people that just come to work, do their job really well,

[00:41:29] and go home because they're the backbone of your small business.

[00:41:32] They sure are, yeah.

[00:41:33] And they're usually admin.

[00:41:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:41:35] And that's the kind of traits you want.

[00:41:38] You're just steady.

[00:41:39] I went to a session a week before last on employee ownership,

[00:41:44] and there's a guy called Graeme Nuttall from the UK who's out.

[00:41:47] I think he's on a holiday, but he did a couple of sessions.

[00:41:52] Employee Ownership Australia is an organisation that promotes employee ownership.

[00:41:56] It seems in the UK that employee ownership is – it's a lot more advanced than it is here.

[00:42:03] But it was really all of the data from the UK was that the businesses are more productive.

[00:42:11] It's a fair, more equitable distribution of wealth ultimately.

[00:42:16] But what I didn't yet follow up or research is the direct benefits for an owner and worked in quite a lot of transactions where the staff have come to an owner or the owner's gone to some key staff.

[00:42:32] But, yeah, it's certainly not for everybody.

[00:42:35] But this particular model that he talked about was an employee ownership trust.

[00:42:39] And it's – I'm still getting to understand it at a deeper level.

[00:42:44] But if everybody has some interest without putting their house on the line,

[00:42:50] it seems like it's got some legs.

[00:42:53] And I would say it's probably in some businesses the missing link between getting reasonable productivity and extremely good or exceptional productivity.

[00:43:05] But anyway, we'll keep tracking that.

[00:43:07] Yeah, look, it can be and it can be options.

[00:43:10] I think, you know, I've certainly worked with teams where they've had targets and stuff of bringing in new customers.

[00:43:16] But what's happened is that there's not opportunity, say, for admin to really do that.

[00:43:21] So you've got to be really careful about whole-of-business, you know, targets because it's hard to get buy-in if everyone is actually not able to achieve that.

[00:43:31] Yeah, well, it can be – yeah, like we were talking about at the beginning, it can be an owner chasing sales because they're the rainmaker.

[00:43:37] But if it's not profitable or it puts the team who's delivering or manufacturing or under extreme pressure, it's kind of counterproductive.

[00:43:48] Yeah, that's right.

[00:43:49] Yeah, we see that a lot as well.

[00:43:51] Oh, they've just done that.

[00:43:52] Oh, that's great.

[00:43:53] How are we going to do that within capacity and capability as we currently have it, you know?

[00:43:58] Yeah, override being you need to have a whole-of-business or, you know, how does this impact the business?

[00:44:05] Yes, very much so.

[00:44:07] Those KPIs or stretch targets can line up.

[00:44:11] Yeah.

[00:44:12] It's all good.

[00:44:13] I was a bit keen to get your take in closing.

[00:44:17] We'll get you to read out – talk about the name of your book and we'll put a link to that in the show notes.

[00:44:25] But it seems like for me that there's a lot of businesses that could do with the kind of work you do.

[00:44:33] There's reasons that we all – maybe we've all got a slightly different take on it.

[00:44:39] But what would you implore an owner to do who's listening in and is going, I'm working a lot of hours.

[00:44:47] I don't think I'm making the money I should be making or I want to make.

[00:44:51] What are the couple of things you would say, whether they're baby steps or completely like radical restructures?

[00:44:59] What would you suggest they do as a next step and then the one after that?

[00:45:04] Well, I certainly believe – and I'm not saying this because I am a business coach.

[00:45:08] I certainly believe that every business should have a coach.

[00:45:11] It's just like every sporting team to be successful has a coach.

[00:45:15] I know my business changed for the better once I had a coach and you'll see that in all businesses.

[00:45:23] The trick for that though for owners, particularly when cash is tied, is we have this conflict.

[00:45:28] But I haven't got the dollars.

[00:45:30] Yeah, but we need people – what if that person can help make your dollars and free up your time and all those type of things?

[00:45:35] So it's weighing up the cost benefit as part of that.

[00:45:41] So certainly if there's an owner out there going, yeah, have a free chat with me.

[00:45:46] I'll give you solutions to stuff that is frustrating you right now as part of that.

[00:45:52] But I think that that's the first thing.

[00:45:54] I think the second thing also is to be thinking about and doing your own reflection about, well, if I had to build this business again, is this what I would have?

[00:46:03] Do I know my numbers?

[00:46:05] Have I actually got the simple profitable business that I actually love?

[00:46:10] Because if you haven't got that, then something needs to change as part of that.

[00:46:15] That's a good way to reflect on.

[00:46:17] I often use like a mirror of that, which is would you buy this?

[00:46:23] Well, exactly.

[00:46:24] Would you buy the business?

[00:46:25] Really?

[00:46:26] Come on.

[00:46:26] Would you?

[00:46:27] Yeah, like if you had opportunity to pitch on Shark Tank, could you do it?

[00:46:31] Or would they say to you, but you're not profitable, you keep losing money each year, or you're not clear on your customer?

[00:46:37] I love those shows.

[00:46:38] I love Shark Tank, both the Australian and US, plus Dragon's Den.

[00:46:42] And people go, oh, but why?

[00:46:43] Because you get so much learnings.

[00:46:46] There's many things of why those deals don't fail and why they beat them up.

[00:46:50] If you don't know your numbers, if you're not clear of your customer, if you're not clear of your point of difference, which by the way is not a quality product and great customer service, because that's my expectation as a customer.

[00:47:01] What else have you got?

[00:47:02] Yeah.

[00:47:02] You know, so there's things like that.

[00:47:05] So yeah, it's would you build it again?

[00:47:07] Could you sell it?

[00:47:08] Could you pitch it?

[00:47:09] You've got to be open and honest to that.

[00:47:11] And I think, you know, coming into any new year is, you know.

[00:47:15] It's not a bad time for some introspection about those kinds of questions.

[00:47:21] Yeah.

[00:47:21] You know, I mean, I use for myself and talk with clients all the time, but particularly at the beginning of New Year's, new quarters, things like that, is what are the three things I need to start doing?

[00:47:34] What are the three things I need to keep doing?

[00:47:37] And what are the three things I need to stop doing?

[00:47:39] And some of that might be I need to just stop making excuses because we've got to put the mirror on us and I own that as well.

[00:47:46] You know, there are reasons why we're not where we are and some of that is us.

[00:47:50] And it's okay to acknowledge that, eh?

[00:47:53] Absolutely.

[00:47:54] Yeah.

[00:47:54] All right.

[00:47:55] Okay.

[00:47:56] Tamara, thank you so much for your time.

[00:47:59] What's the best place for people to reach you?

[00:48:01] Yep.

[00:48:02] So they can head to my website, which is tamarasimon.com.au.

[00:48:07] That's where they can have a look at the book.

[00:48:09] You can download the first three chapters for free.

[00:48:12] You can also book, as I said, a free chat with me, see if I can help solve at least one of your biggest problems.

[00:48:19] And I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook as well.

[00:48:22] Okay.

[00:48:22] So they can connect with me again.

[00:48:23] Yeah, we'll put all those links, but you're clearly open to people reaching out.

[00:48:27] Yeah, definitely.

[00:48:28] Yeah.

[00:48:29] Thanks so much for your time.

[00:48:31] Incredibly energetic and really, you know, practical and pragmatic stuff that you can do in your business.

[00:48:36] And don't delay.

[00:48:38] No, thank you very much for your time, Michael, and to your audience.

[00:48:41] I really appreciate it and hope there's been a couple of gems there for you.

[00:48:45] I'm sure there has.

[00:48:46] All right, Tamara.

[00:48:47] Thank you so much.

[00:48:48] Thanks.

[00:48:49] Thanks.

[00:48:53] Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode of Small Business Banter, and I hope it was helpful in you getting the most out of your small business ownership.

[00:49:01] To subscribe or listen back or to check out any of the resources or information we talked about today, head over to the website, smallbusinessbanter.com.au.

[00:49:11] Or if you want, search up Small Business Banter on your favorite podcast player.

[00:49:16] Don't forget to subscribe.

[00:49:18] And if it was really helpful, I'd love it if you told another business owner about the podcast.

[00:49:23] If you thought it was exceptionally helpful, then how about you leave me a five-star rating?

[00:49:29] If you think I can help personally, please reach out to me, Michael Kerr, via the website.

[00:49:34] There's a new episode out every couple of weeks.

[00:49:36] We'll catch up then.